Discussion:
The Jesus myth
(too old to reply)
Bill
2003-10-04 19:30:02 UTC
Permalink
The Jesus myth is no more believable than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

The only reason adults cling to this myth is the inherent fear of death and
the potential life after death. Who wants to burn eternally in hell. Who
does not hope to live a wonderful eternal life in heaven? This is the opiate
that bolsters the illogical religious beliefs.

Just consider how ridiculous and totally illogical the foundation of the
Christian belief
system is.

Keep in mind that God is supposedly all powerful and creator of the heavens,
the earth and all the creatures in the Universe.

This all powerful God, who created the human race with it's multitude of
imperfections and ignorance, then sent God the son to earth having him born
of the virgin Mary. He then had him grow up normally from child hood to
adulthood with the profession of an illiterate carpenter as an adult.

He then preached a variant of Judaism in a small area of the middle East.
His preaching reached only a miniscule portion of the worlds population at
that time. The millions that were born and died prior to his coming received
non of his religious instruction and lived and died without its benefits.
The other millions that he did not reach with his preachings like wise lived
and died without the benefit of his teachings and pronouncements.

Jesus then let the Romans arrest him and painfully and cruelly kill him by
nailing him to a cross with two common criminals. What could be the purpose
of this for an omnipotent God?

After all his grossly inefficient and ineffective teaching and crusifiction
he rose from his crypt and went back to heaven from whence he came.

He left behind no documents or writings of his own, as evidence of his
instructions to the human race. Instead he left it to fallible humans to
document his instructions in frequently varied and contradictory documents
now called the Bible. Despite the passage of 2,000 years he has still left
millions without the knowledge or benefit of his teachings.

Man has been able to create world wide communications systems such as
radio,TV and cell phones. Why didn't God use his awesome powers to reach
all of his subjects directly via some efficient similer communications
system. Why doesn't he now?

The answer is simple. This whole Christian/Jesus belief system is pure myth.
--
Bill Mech
***@att.net
Gringo
2003-10-04 19:45:35 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 19:30:02 GMT, "Bill" <***@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

~The Jesus myth is no more believable than Santa Claus or the Easter
Bunny.
~
~The only reason adults cling to this myth is the inherent fear of death
and
~the potential life after death. Who wants to burn eternally in hell.
Who
~does not hope to live a wonderful eternal life in heaven? This is the
opiate
~that bolsters the illogical religious beliefs.
~
~Just consider how ridiculous and totally illogical the foundation of
the
~Christian belief
~system is.
~
~Keep in mind that God is supposedly all powerful and creator of the
heavens,
~the earth and all the creatures in the Universe.
~
~This all powerful God, who created the human race with it's multitude
of
~imperfections and ignorance, then sent God the son to earth having him
born
~of the virgin Mary. He then had him grow up normally from child hood to
~adulthood with the profession of an illiterate carpenter as an adult.
~
~He then preached a variant of Judaism in a small area of the middle
East.
~His preaching reached only a miniscule portion of the worlds population
at
~that time. The millions that were born and died prior to his coming
received
~non of his religious instruction and lived and died without its
benefits.
~The other millions that he did not reach with his preachings like wise
lived
~and died without the benefit of his teachings and pronouncements.
~
~Jesus then let the Romans arrest him and painfully and cruelly kill him
by
~nailing him to a cross with two common criminals. What could be the
purpose
~of this for an omnipotent God?
~
~After all his grossly inefficient and ineffective teaching and
crusifiction
~he rose from his crypt and went back to heaven from whence he came.
~
~He left behind no documents or writings of his own, as evidence of his
~instructions to the human race. Instead he left it to fallible humans
to
~document his instructions in frequently varied and contradictory
documents
~now called the Bible. Despite the passage of 2,000 years he has still
left
~millions without the knowledge or benefit of his teachings.
~
~Man has been able to create world wide communications systems such as
~radio,TV and cell phones. Why didn't God use his awesome powers to
reach
~all of his subjects directly via some efficient similer communications
~system. Why doesn't he now?
~
~The answer is simple. This whole Christian/Jesus belief system is pure
myth.

And, to top it all off, those who believe the myth can easily justify
war, ignore world starvation, pretend science doesn't exist, and on and
on and on. All convinced that such a misuse of the mind and spirit of
man can be hidden under their precious 'bushel' in a way that guarantees
their afterlife with their little tin god while the 'bushel' others hide
behind condemns them to eternal flame.

Never mind there's not a syllable that can be uttered that explains a
single aspect of heaven. It is just someplace somewhere but boy, is it
a great place!

Never mind there is no reconciliations between the evil and good faces
of this tin god as recorded in the 'holy' book. Ironically, the denial
of god's two faces portends the very impossibility of the book's
holiness.

Never mind that it simply doesn't make sense. The brain, after all, is
a terrible thing and one must resort to faith to get by Saint Peter.


I guess it's simply that there are people so willing to be led that
they'll follow anything that makes them feel important. Brain-washed to
the end. Brain-dead to the end. Funny, if there were a god and there
were a hell, I'd wager that these fundamental followers already have
their ticket punched because they are unwilling to use that brain.


Un hombre sabio utilizará su cerebro.
Un tonto utiliza el cerebro de otro.
Fistful of Nothing
2003-10-04 20:27:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gringo
~The Jesus myth is no more believable than Santa Claus or the Easter
Bunny.
~
~The only reason adults cling to this myth is the inherent fear of death
and
~the potential life after death. Who wants to burn eternally in hell.
Who
~does not hope to live a wonderful eternal life in heaven? This is the
opiate
~that bolsters the illogical religious beliefs.
~
~Just consider how ridiculous and totally illogical the foundation of
the
~Christian belief
~system is.
~
~Keep in mind that God is supposedly all powerful and creator of the
heavens,
~the earth and all the creatures in the Universe.
~
~This all powerful God, who created the human race with it's multitude
of
~imperfections and ignorance, then sent God the son to earth having him
born
~of the virgin Mary. He then had him grow up normally from child hood to
~adulthood with the profession of an illiterate carpenter as an adult.
~
~He then preached a variant of Judaism in a small area of the middle
East.
~His preaching reached only a miniscule portion of the worlds population
at
~that time. The millions that were born and died prior to his coming
received
~non of his religious instruction and lived and died without its
benefits.
~The other millions that he did not reach with his preachings like wise
lived
~and died without the benefit of his teachings and pronouncements.
~
~Jesus then let the Romans arrest him and painfully and cruelly kill him
by
~nailing him to a cross with two common criminals. What could be the
purpose
~of this for an omnipotent God?
~
~After all his grossly inefficient and ineffective teaching and
crusifiction
~he rose from his crypt and went back to heaven from whence he came.
~
~He left behind no documents or writings of his own, as evidence of his
~instructions to the human race. Instead he left it to fallible humans
to
~document his instructions in frequently varied and contradictory
documents
~now called the Bible. Despite the passage of 2,000 years he has still
left
~millions without the knowledge or benefit of his teachings.
~
~Man has been able to create world wide communications systems such as
~radio,TV and cell phones. Why didn't God use his awesome powers to
reach
~all of his subjects directly via some efficient similer communications
~system. Why doesn't he now?
~
~The answer is simple. This whole Christian/Jesus belief system is pure
myth.
And, to top it all off, those who believe the myth can easily justify
war, ignore world starvation, pretend science doesn't exist, and on and
on and on. All convinced that such a misuse of the mind and spirit of
man can be hidden under their precious 'bushel' in a way that guarantees
their afterlife with their little tin god while the 'bushel' others hide
behind condemns them to eternal flame.
Never mind there's not a syllable that can be uttered that explains a
single aspect of heaven. It is just someplace somewhere but boy, is it
a great place!
Never mind there is no reconciliations between the evil and good faces
of this tin god as recorded in the 'holy' book. Ironically, the denial
of god's two faces portends the very impossibility of the book's
holiness.
Never mind that it simply doesn't make sense. The brain, after all, is
a terrible thing and one must resort to faith to get by Saint Peter.
I guess it's simply that there are people so willing to be led that
they'll follow anything that makes them feel important. Brain-washed to
the end. Brain-dead to the end. Funny, if there were a god and there
were a hell, I'd wager that these fundamental followers already have
their ticket punched because they are unwilling to use that brain.
Un hombre sabio utilizará su cerebro.
Un tonto utiliza el cerebro de otro.
I agree with both of you in some ways. I myself have not made up my mind
yet,
but I think you have missed some of the point of the whole thing. It's going
to take
more than anecdotal observations to do away with Christianity (or prove its
validity).
Blast Femur
2003-10-05 02:00:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fistful of Nothing
Post by Gringo
~The Jesus myth is no more believable than Santa Claus or the Easter
Bunny.
~
~The only reason adults cling to this myth is the inherent fear of
death and
~the potential life after death. Who wants to burn eternally in hell.
Who
~does not hope to live a wonderful eternal life in heaven? This is
the opiate
~that bolsters the illogical religious beliefs.
~
~Just consider how ridiculous and totally illogical the foundation of
the
~Christian belief
~system is.
~
~Keep in mind that God is supposedly all powerful and creator of the
heavens,
~the earth and all the creatures in the Universe.
~
~This all powerful God, who created the human race with it's
multitude of
~imperfections and ignorance, then sent God the son to earth having
him born
~of the virgin Mary. He then had him grow up normally from child hood
to ~adulthood with the profession of an illiterate carpenter as an
adult. ~
~He then preached a variant of Judaism in a small area of the middle
East.
~His preaching reached only a miniscule portion of the worlds
population at
~that time. The millions that were born and died prior to his coming
received
~non of his religious instruction and lived and died without its
benefits.
~The other millions that he did not reach with his preachings like
wise lived
~and died without the benefit of his teachings and pronouncements.
~
~Jesus then let the Romans arrest him and painfully and cruelly kill
him by
~nailing him to a cross with two common criminals. What could be the
purpose
~of this for an omnipotent God?
~
~After all his grossly inefficient and ineffective teaching and
crusifiction
~he rose from his crypt and went back to heaven from whence he came.
~
~He left behind no documents or writings of his own, as evidence of
his ~instructions to the human race. Instead he left it to fallible
humans to
~document his instructions in frequently varied and contradictory
documents
~now called the Bible. Despite the passage of 2,000 years he has
still left
~millions without the knowledge or benefit of his teachings.
~
~Man has been able to create world wide communications systems such
as ~radio,TV and cell phones. Why didn't God use his awesome powers
to reach
~all of his subjects directly via some efficient similer
communications ~system. Why doesn't he now?
~
~The answer is simple. This whole Christian/Jesus belief system is
pure myth.
And, to top it all off, those who believe the myth can easily justify
war, ignore world starvation, pretend science doesn't exist, and on
and on and on. All convinced that such a misuse of the mind and
spirit of man can be hidden under their precious 'bushel' in a way
that guarantees their afterlife with their little tin god while the
'bushel' others hide behind condemns them to eternal flame.
Never mind there's not a syllable that can be uttered that explains a
single aspect of heaven. It is just someplace somewhere but boy, is
it a great place!
Never mind there is no reconciliations between the evil and good
faces of this tin god as recorded in the 'holy' book. Ironically,
the denial of god's two faces portends the very impossibility of the
book's holiness.
Never mind that it simply doesn't make sense. The brain, after all,
is a terrible thing and one must resort to faith to get by Saint
Peter.
I guess it's simply that there are people so willing to be led that
they'll follow anything that makes them feel important. Brain-washed
to the end. Brain-dead to the end. Funny, if there were a god and
there were a hell, I'd wager that these fundamental followers already
have their ticket punched because they are unwilling to use that
brain.
Un hombre sabio utilizará su cerebro.
Un tonto utiliza el cerebro de otro.
I agree with both of you in some ways. I myself have not made up my
mind yet,
but I think you have missed some of the point of the whole thing. It's
going to take
more than anecdotal observations to do away with Christianity (or
prove its validity).
I can make it simple for you. Modern astronomy debunks the biblical
timeline. And Evolution (the Church's worst enemy) debunks biblical
creation. We know for a fact now that Adam & Eve never existed.
Therefore there was no original sin. And without original sinners, why
on earth do we need saviors? The whole edifice topples.
--
Blast Femur

______________

So, what are you going to do with the first 18,547,387,259,122,090 years
of eternity?
Woden
2003-10-05 02:22:39 UTC
Permalink
(snip)
Post by Blast Femur
Post by Fistful of Nothing
I agree with both of you in some ways. I myself have not made up my
mind yet,
but I think you have missed some of the point of the whole thing. It's
going to take
more than anecdotal observations to do away with Christianity (or
prove its validity).
I can make it simple for you. Modern astronomy debunks the biblical
timeline. And Evolution (the Church's worst enemy) debunks biblical
creation. We know for a fact now that Adam & Eve never existed.
Therefore there was no original sin. And without original sinners, why
on earth do we need saviors? The whole edifice topples.
And do you really think that science and reason will sway the minds of
"true believers"?
--
Woden

"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
Blast Femur
2003-10-05 02:43:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Woden
(snip)
Post by Blast Femur
Post by Fistful of Nothing
I agree with both of you in some ways. I myself have not made up my
mind yet,
but I think you have missed some of the point of the whole thing. It's
going to take
more than anecdotal observations to do away with Christianity (or
prove its validity).
I can make it simple for you. Modern astronomy debunks the biblical
timeline. And Evolution (the Church's worst enemy) debunks biblical
creation. We know for a fact now that Adam & Eve never existed.
Therefore there was no original sin. And without original sinners, why
on earth do we need saviors? The whole edifice topples.
And do you really think that science and reason will sway the minds of
"true believers"?
When hell freezes over. :^)
--
Blast Femur

______________

So, what are you going to do with the first 18,547,387,259,122,090 years
of eternity?
bob young
2003-10-05 09:10:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Woden
(snip)
Post by Blast Femur
Post by Fistful of Nothing
I agree with both of you in some ways. I myself have not made up my
mind yet,
but I think you have missed some of the point of the whole thing. It's
going to take
more than anecdotal observations to do away with Christianity (or
prove its validity).
I can make it simple for you. Modern astronomy debunks the biblical
timeline. And Evolution (the Church's worst enemy) debunks biblical
creation. We know for a fact now that Adam & Eve never existed.
Therefore there was no original sin. And without original sinners, why
on earth do we need saviors? The whole edifice topples.
And do you really think that science and reason will sway the minds of
"true believers"?
....the question needs to be asked 'why am i a true believer?

...the answer probably is that your mum and dad were also true believers.

If reckon this applies to 90% of believers in any religion today.... and if
you are among them a little inward thinking is recommended

bob
hong Kong

"There are two things in the world that can never
get together - religion & common sense."
[George W. Foote]
Post by Woden
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
Dr. DuFonet
2003-10-05 12:29:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Woden
(snip)
Post by Blast Femur
Post by Fistful of Nothing
I agree with both of you in some ways. I myself have not made up my
mind yet,
but I think you have missed some of the point of the whole thing. It's
going to take
more than anecdotal observations to do away with Christianity (or
prove its validity).
I can make it simple for you. Modern astronomy debunks the biblical
timeline. And Evolution (the Church's worst enemy) debunks biblical
creation. We know for a fact now that Adam & Eve never existed.
Therefore there was no original sin. And without original sinners, why
on earth do we need saviors? The whole edifice topples.
And do you really think that science and reason will sway the minds of
"true believers"?
Yes, I think science and reason have a lot to do with changing peoples'
minds. Some people have too much personal psychological and financial gain
invested, to listen to so-called reason, but others would cite modern ideas
a s a reason to reject the historical anachronism know as religion..
Post by Woden
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
Mark K. Bilbo
2003-10-05 14:23:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Woden
(snip)
Post by Blast Femur
Post by Fistful of Nothing
I agree with both of you in some ways. I myself have not made up my
mind yet,
but I think you have missed some of the point of the whole thing. It's
going to take
more than anecdotal observations to do away with Christianity (or
prove its validity).
I can make it simple for you. Modern astronomy debunks the biblical
timeline. And Evolution (the Church's worst enemy) debunks biblical
creation. We know for a fact now that Adam & Eve never existed.
Therefore there was no original sin. And without original sinners, why
on earth do we need saviors? The whole edifice topples.
And do you really think that science and reason will sway the minds of
"true believers"?
You know, in many ways it already *does.

The whole point of trying to grab the mantle of science (eg "creation
science") is because the *authority of science is recognized even by its
most vehement enemies.

You just cannot live in a society this advanced and not recognize the
sheep *power of science.

Excluding the obviously insane, even the extremists don't want science to
"go away." Just be forced to back off. They *want the goodies (vaccines,
hospitals, electricity, etc.). They rather just want to pen science up so
it can't be so much a bother.

They know they've already *lost the debate. Hence, they panic...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
Mark K. Bilbo
2003-10-05 17:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
You just cannot live in a society this advanced and not recognize the
sheep *power of science.
Erm... make that "sheer" power.

(he typed sheepishly)
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
raven1
2003-10-05 17:31:36 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 12:09:24 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
You just cannot live in a society this advanced and not recognize the
sheep *power of science.
Erm... make that "sheer" power.
(he typed sheepishly)
Wouldn't that be "shear" power if you typed it sheepishly...? ;-)
Mark K. Bilbo
2003-10-05 17:34:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by raven1
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 12:09:24 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
You just cannot live in a society this advanced and not recognize the
sheep *power of science.
Erm... make that "sheer" power.
(he typed sheepishly)
Wouldn't that be "shear" power if you typed it sheepishly...? ;-)
Shearly you jest!
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
stoney
2003-10-06 16:39:41 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 12:34:53 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by raven1
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 12:09:24 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
You just cannot live in a society this advanced and not recognize the
sheep *power of science.
Erm... make that "sheer" power.
(he typed sheepishly)
Wouldn't that be "shear" power if you typed it sheepishly...? ;-)
Shearly you jest!
Well, there's no pulling the wool over your eyes......



Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"

When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert

alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
Fistful of Nothing
2003-10-05 18:13:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
You just cannot live in a society this advanced and not recognize the
sheep *power of science.
Erm... make that "sheer" power.
ok people.
c'mon........that was funny.
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
(he typed sheepishly)
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
Christopher A. Lee
2003-10-04 20:37:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
The Jesus myth is no more believable than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
The only reason adults cling to this myth is the inherent fear of death and
the potential life after death. Who wants to burn eternally in hell. Who
does not hope to live a wonderful eternal life in heaven? This is the opiate
that bolsters the illogical religious beliefs.
It sounds that way because they use Pascal's wager. But I think they
do that because they can neither nor explain it. People believe
because they were taught it and the bible at an early age. So both
these become almost hard-wired, and are part of the basic foundations
that are used to explain everything else. Even coverts from other
religions had deity/scripture hardwired, and somebody came along and
convinced them this was the "real" one.

It's so foundational that they can't detach themselves from it when
they try to "prove" it.

None of which would matter if they didn't push it on everybody else..
Fistful of Nothing
2003-10-04 21:33:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Bill
The Jesus myth is no more believable than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
The only reason adults cling to this myth is the inherent fear of death and
the potential life after death. Who wants to burn eternally in hell. Who
does not hope to live a wonderful eternal life in heaven? This is the opiate
that bolsters the illogical religious beliefs.
It sounds that way because they use Pascal's wager. But I think they
do that because they can neither nor explain it. People believe
because they were taught it and the bible at an early age. So both
these become almost hard-wired, and are part of the basic foundations
that are used to explain everything else. Even coverts from other
religions had deity/scripture hardwired, and somebody came along and
convinced them this was the "real" one.
The sense of mystery -even if a little fear- is what engendered religion.
-Albert Einstein
Post by Christopher A. Lee
It's so foundational that they can't detach themselves from it when
they try to "prove" it.
None of which would matter if they didn't push it on everybody else..
Sure it would.
You "brights" would still delight in persecution.
quibbler
2003-10-05 21:01:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fistful of Nothing
Sure it would.
You "brights" would still delight in persecution.
Maybe some would. But nobody loves persecution more than a christer.
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
Gringo
2003-10-05 22:07:44 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 15:01:18 -0600, quibbler <***@yahoo.com>
wrote:

~In article <31Hfb.1713$***@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
~> Sure it would.
~> You "brights" would still delight in persecution.
~
~Maybe some would. But nobody loves persecution more than a christer.

Or, who likes to denigrate and persecute others. Seems like two
christian prerequisites are the proven ability to feel hopelessly sorry
for yourself and to build your beliefs by attacking others who profess a
different view of the divine -- often physically.


Un hombre sabio utilizará su cerebro.
Un tonto utiliza el cerebro de otro.
stoney
2003-10-06 16:47:53 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 21:33:51 GMT, "Fistful of Nothing"
<***@earthlink.net>, Message ID:
<31Hfb.1713$***@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net> wrote in
alt.atheism;
Post by Bill
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Bill
The Jesus myth is no more believable than Santa Claus or the Easter
Bunny.
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Bill
The only reason adults cling to this myth is the inherent fear of death
and
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Bill
the potential life after death. Who wants to burn eternally in hell. Who
does not hope to live a wonderful eternal life in heaven? This is the
opiate
Post by Christopher A. Lee
Post by Bill
that bolsters the illogical religious beliefs.
It sounds that way because they use Pascal's wager. But I think they
do that because they can neither nor explain it. People believe
because they were taught it and the bible at an early age. So both
these become almost hard-wired, and are part of the basic foundations
that are used to explain everything else. Even coverts from other
religions had deity/scripture hardwired, and somebody came along and
convinced them this was the "real" one.
The sense of mystery -even if a little fear- is what engendered religion.
-Albert Einstein
Post by Christopher A. Lee
It's so foundational that they can't detach themselves from it when
they try to "prove" it.
None of which would matter if they didn't push it on everybody else..
Sure it would.
You "brights" would still delight in persecution.
Delight? Please don't project S&M mentality which is mainly the
province of the superstitious onto others. Your statement does
highlight Christian insecurity and hypocracy.



Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"

When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert

alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}

Melchizedek
2003-10-04 22:19:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
The Jesus myth is no more believable than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
The only reason adults cling to this myth is the inherent fear of death and
the potential life after death. Who wants to burn eternally in hell. Who
does not hope to live a wonderful eternal life in heaven? This is the opiate
that bolsters the illogical religious beliefs.
Just consider how ridiculous and totally illogical the foundation of the
Christian belief
system is.
Keep in mind that God is supposedly all powerful and creator of the heavens,
the earth and all the creatures in the Universe.
This all powerful God, who created the human race with it's multitude of
imperfections and ignorance, then sent God the son to earth having him born
of the virgin Mary. He then had him grow up normally from child hood to
adulthood with the profession of an illiterate carpenter as an adult.
He then preached a variant of Judaism in a small area of the middle East.
His preaching reached only a miniscule portion of the worlds population at
that time. The millions that were born and died prior to his coming received
non of his religious instruction and lived and died without its benefits.
The other millions that he did not reach with his preachings like wise lived
and died without the benefit of his teachings and pronouncements.
Jesus then let the Romans arrest him and painfully and cruelly kill him by
nailing him to a cross with two common criminals. What could be the purpose
of this for an omnipotent God?
After all his grossly inefficient and ineffective teaching and crusifiction
he rose from his crypt and went back to heaven from whence he came.
He left behind no documents or writings of his own, as evidence of his
instructions to the human race. Instead he left it to fallible humans to
document his instructions in frequently varied and contradictory documents
now called the Bible. Despite the passage of 2,000 years he has still left
millions without the knowledge or benefit of his teachings.
Man has been able to create world wide communications systems such as
radio,TV and cell phones. Why didn't God use his awesome powers to reach
all of his subjects directly via some efficient similer communications
system. Why doesn't he now?
The answer is simple. This whole Christian/Jesus belief system is pure myth.
--
Bill Mech
Mt 7:13 Enter through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and spacious and
broad is the way that leads away to destruction, and many are those who are
entering through it.

Mt 7:14 But the gate is narrow (contracted by pressure) and the way is
straitened and compressed that leads away to life, and few are those who find
it. [Deut. 30:19; Jer. 21:8]

Mt 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside
they are devouring wolves. [Ezek. 22:27]

7. Conclusion: call to decision and commitment (7:13-27)

a. Two ways (7:13-14)

The Sermon on the Mount ends with four warnings, each offering paired contrasts:
two ways (vv. 13-14), two trees (vv. 15-20), two claims (vv. 21-23), and two
builders (vv. 24-27). They focus on eschatological judgment and so make it plain
that the theme is still the kingdom of heaven. But if some will not enter it
(vv. 13-14, 21-23), the sole basis for such a tragedy is their response to
Jesus' words.

13-14 The general picture here is clear enough: there are two gates, two roads,
two crowds, two destinations. The "narrow" gate is clearly restrictive and does
not permit entrance to what Jesus prohibits. The "wide" gate seems far more
inviting. The "broad" road is spacious and accommodates the crowd and their
baggage; the other road is "narrow" and restricting, because it is the way of
persecution and opposition--a major theme in Matthew (see comment on 5:10-12;
cf. Ac 14:22).

But the two roads are not ends in themselves. The narrow road leads to life,
i.e., to the consummated kingdom (cf. vv. 21-23); but the broad road leads to
eternal death (cf. 25:34, 46; Jn 17:12; Ro 9:22; et al.). Democratic decisions
do not determine truth and righteousness in the kingdom; the way that leads to
life is exclusively by revelation.

It seems best to regard the gate as something entered in this life as one begins
the path of discipleship. Entrance through the gate into the narrow way of
persecution begins now but issues in the consummated kingdom at the other end of
that way. In other words, even the beginning of this path to life is
restrictive.
Mark K. Bilbo
2003-10-04 23:20:14 UTC
Permalink
Mel's babbling again.
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
Gringo
2003-10-05 00:01:13 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 04 Oct 2003 22:19:57 GMT, "Melchizedek" <***@as-if.com>
wrote:

~
~"Bill" <***@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
~news:_cFfb.164035$***@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
~> The Jesus myth is no more believable than Santa Claus or the Easter
Bunny.
~>
~> The only reason adults cling to this myth is the inherent fear of
death and
~> the potential life after death. Who wants to burn eternally in hell.
Who
~> does not hope to live a wonderful eternal life in heaven? This is the
opiate
~> that bolsters the illogical religious beliefs.
~>
~> Just consider how ridiculous and totally illogical the foundation of
the
~> Christian belief
~> system is.
~>
~> Keep in mind that God is supposedly all powerful and creator of the
heavens,
~> the earth and all the creatures in the Universe.
~>
~> This all powerful God, who created the human race with it's multitude
of
~> imperfections and ignorance, then sent God the son to earth having
him born
~> of the virgin Mary. He then had him grow up normally from child hood
to
~> adulthood with the profession of an illiterate carpenter as an adult.
~>
~> He then preached a variant of Judaism in a small area of the middle
East.
~> His preaching reached only a miniscule portion of the worlds
population at
~> that time. The millions that were born and died prior to his coming
received
~> non of his religious instruction and lived and died without its
benefits.
~> The other millions that he did not reach with his preachings like
wise lived
~> and died without the benefit of his teachings and pronouncements.
~>
~> Jesus then let the Romans arrest him and painfully and cruelly kill
him by
~> nailing him to a cross with two common criminals. What could be the
purpose
~> of this for an omnipotent God?
~>
~> After all his grossly inefficient and ineffective teaching and
crusifiction
~> he rose from his crypt and went back to heaven from whence he came.
~>
~> He left behind no documents or writings of his own, as evidence of
his
~> instructions to the human race. Instead he left it to fallible humans
to
~> document his instructions in frequently varied and contradictory
documents
~> now called the Bible. Despite the passage of 2,000 years he has still
left
~> millions without the knowledge or benefit of his teachings.
~>
~> Man has been able to create world wide communications systems such as
~> radio,TV and cell phones. Why didn't God use his awesome powers to
reach
~> all of his subjects directly via some efficient similer
communications
~> system. Why doesn't he now?
~>
~> The answer is simple. This whole Christian/Jesus belief system is
pure myth.
~>
~>
~> --
~> Bill Mech
~> ***@att.net
~>
~>
~Mt 7:13 Enter through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and
spacious and
~broad is the way that leads away to destruction, and many are those who
are
~entering through it.
~
~Mt 7:14 But the gate is narrow (contracted by pressure) and the way is
~straitened and compressed that leads away to life, and few are those
who find
~it. [Deut. 30:19; Jer. 21:8]
~
~Mt 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but
inside
~they are devouring wolves. [Ezek. 22:27]
~
~7. Conclusion: call to decision and commitment (7:13-27)
~
~a. Two ways (7:13-14)
~
~The Sermon on the Mount ends with four warnings, each offering paired
contrasts:
~two ways (vv. 13-14), two trees (vv. 15-20), two claims (vv. 21-23),
and two
~builders (vv. 24-27). They focus on eschatological judgment and so make
it plain
~that the theme is still the kingdom of heaven. But if some will not
enter it
~(vv. 13-14, 21-23), the sole basis for such a tragedy is their response
to
~Jesus' words.
~
~13-14 The general picture here is clear enough: there are two gates,
two roads,
~two crowds, two destinations. The "narrow" gate is clearly restrictive
and does
~not permit entrance to what Jesus prohibits. The "wide" gate seems far
more
~inviting. The "broad" road is spacious and accommodates the crowd and
their
~baggage; the other road is "narrow" and restricting, because it is the
way of
~persecution and opposition--a major theme in Matthew (see comment on
5:10-12;
~cf. Ac 14:22).
~
~But the two roads are not ends in themselves. The narrow road leads to
life,
~i.e., to the consummated kingdom (cf. vv. 21-23); but the broad road
leads to
~eternal death (cf. 25:34, 46; Jn 17:12; Ro 9:22; et al.). Democratic
decisions
~do not determine truth and righteousness in the kingdom; the way that
leads to
~life is exclusively by revelation.
~
~It seems best to regard the gate as something entered in this life as
one begins
~the path of discipleship. Entrance through the gate into the narrow way
of
~persecution begins now but issues in the consummated kingdom at the
other end of
~that way. In other words, even the beginning of this path to life is
~restrictive.
~
~
~

Thank you reverend. You're a great example of what this post is all
about.


Un hombre sabio utilizará su cerebro.
Un tonto utiliza el cerebro de otro.
Kenneth Doyle
2003-10-05 01:32:40 UTC
Permalink
[The four warnings that end the sermon on the mount] focus on
eschatological judgment and so make
it plain that the theme is still the kingdom of heaven. But
if some will not enter it (vv. 13-14, 21-23), the sole
basis for such a tragedy is their response to Jesus' words.
Glad to see you got the point. Since there are no words of
Jesus' in existence, everyone is doomed.
Blast Femur
2003-10-05 02:05:17 UTC
Permalink
"Melchizedek" <***@as-if.com> wrote in news:fIHfb.40$***@news.randori.com:

<snip all, including circular argument>

When called upon to prove his god, the religious man quotes the bible.
Why is it he cannot see he is using the bible to prove the bible? I, of
course, could do the same to prove the existence of Harry Potter. Why do
they do this? Fear of hell, of course, another concept that only exists
in the bible.

Don't you people get dizzy?
--
Blast Femur

______________

So, what are you going to do with the first 18,547,387,259,122,090 years
of eternity?
Fistful of Nothing
2003-10-05 03:13:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Blast Femur
<snip all, including circular argument>
When called upon to prove his god, the religious man quotes the bible.
Why is it he cannot see he is using the bible to prove the bible?
I have always had a problem with that.
Don't they understand that this will convince no one?

I, of
Post by Blast Femur
course, could do the same to prove the existence of Harry Potter. Why do
they do this? Fear of hell, of course, another concept that only exists
in the bible.
Don't you people get dizzy?
I do, when they won't listen and just keep quoting...
Post by Blast Femur
--
Blast Femur
______________
So, what are you going to do with the first 18,547,387,259,122,090 years
of eternity?
bob young
2003-10-05 09:12:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Melchizedek
Post by Bill
The Jesus myth is no more believable than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
The only reason adults cling to this myth is the inherent fear of death and
the potential life after death. Who wants to burn eternally in hell. Who
does not hope to live a wonderful eternal life in heaven? This is the opiate
that bolsters the illogical religious beliefs.
Just consider how ridiculous and totally illogical the foundation of the
Christian belief
system is.
Keep in mind that God is supposedly all powerful and creator of the heavens,
the earth and all the creatures in the Universe.
This all powerful God, who created the human race with it's multitude of
imperfections and ignorance, then sent God the son to earth having him born
of the virgin Mary. He then had him grow up normally from child hood to
adulthood with the profession of an illiterate carpenter as an adult.
He then preached a variant of Judaism in a small area of the middle East.
His preaching reached only a miniscule portion of the worlds population at
that time. The millions that were born and died prior to his coming received
non of his religious instruction and lived and died without its benefits.
The other millions that he did not reach with his preachings like wise lived
and died without the benefit of his teachings and pronouncements.
Jesus then let the Romans arrest him and painfully and cruelly kill him by
nailing him to a cross with two common criminals. What could be the purpose
of this for an omnipotent God?
After all his grossly inefficient and ineffective teaching and crusifiction
he rose from his crypt and went back to heaven from whence he came.
He left behind no documents or writings of his own, as evidence of his
instructions to the human race. Instead he left it to fallible humans to
document his instructions in frequently varied and contradictory documents
now called the Bible. Despite the passage of 2,000 years he has still left
millions without the knowledge or benefit of his teachings.
Man has been able to create world wide communications systems such as
radio,TV and cell phones. Why didn't God use his awesome powers to reach
all of his subjects directly via some efficient similer communications
system. Why doesn't he now?
The answer is simple. This whole Christian/Jesus belief system is pure myth.
--
Bill Mech
Mt 7:13 Enter through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and spacious and
broad is the way that leads away to destruction, and many are those who are
entering through it.
Mt 7:14 But the gate is narrow (contracted by pressure) and the way is
straitened and compressed that leads away to life, and few are those who find
it. [Deut. 30:19; Jer. 21:8]
Mt 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside
they are devouring wolves. [Ezek. 22:27]
7. Conclusion: call to decision and commitment (7:13-27)
a. Two ways (7:13-14)
two ways (vv. 13-14), two trees (vv. 15-20), two claims (vv. 21-23), and two
builders (vv. 24-27). They focus on eschatological judgment and so make it plain
that the theme is still the kingdom of heaven. But if some will not enter it
(vv. 13-14, 21-23), the sole basis for such a tragedy is their response to
Jesus' words.
13-14 The general picture here is clear enough: there are two gates, two roads,
two crowds, two destinations. The "narrow" gate is clearly restrictive and does
not permit entrance to what Jesus prohibits. The "wide" gate seems far more
inviting. The "broad" road is spacious and accommodates the crowd and their
baggage; the other road is "narrow" and restricting, because it is the way of
persecution and opposition--a major theme in Matthew (see comment on 5:10-12;
cf. Ac 14:22).
But the two roads are not ends in themselves. The narrow road leads to life,
i.e., to the consummated kingdom (cf. vv. 21-23); but the broad road leads to
eternal death (cf. 25:34, 46; Jn 17:12; Ro 9:22; et al.). Democratic decisions
do not determine truth and righteousness in the kingdom; the way that leads to
life is exclusively by revelation.
It seems best to regard the gate as something entered in this life as one begins
the path of discipleship. Entrance through the gate into the narrow way of
persecution begins now but issues in the consummated kingdom at the other end of
that way. In other words, even the beginning of this path to life is
restrictive.
er.....exactly what are we supposed to have achieved here.....?
Mark K. Bilbo
2003-10-05 14:18:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by bob young
Post by Melchizedek
Post by Bill
The Jesus myth is no more believable than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
The only reason adults cling to this myth is the inherent fear of death and
the potential life after death. Who wants to burn eternally in hell. Who
does not hope to live a wonderful eternal life in heaven? This is the opiate
that bolsters the illogical religious beliefs.
Just consider how ridiculous and totally illogical the foundation of the
Christian belief
system is.
Keep in mind that God is supposedly all powerful and creator of the heavens,
the earth and all the creatures in the Universe.
This all powerful God, who created the human race with it's multitude of
imperfections and ignorance, then sent God the son to earth having him born
of the virgin Mary. He then had him grow up normally from child hood to
adulthood with the profession of an illiterate carpenter as an adult.
He then preached a variant of Judaism in a small area of the middle East.
His preaching reached only a miniscule portion of the worlds population at
that time. The millions that were born and died prior to his coming received
non of his religious instruction and lived and died without its benefits.
The other millions that he did not reach with his preachings like wise lived
and died without the benefit of his teachings and pronouncements.
Jesus then let the Romans arrest him and painfully and cruelly kill him by
nailing him to a cross with two common criminals. What could be the purpose
of this for an omnipotent God?
After all his grossly inefficient and ineffective teaching and crusifiction
he rose from his crypt and went back to heaven from whence he came.
He left behind no documents or writings of his own, as evidence of his
instructions to the human race. Instead he left it to fallible humans to
document his instructions in frequently varied and contradictory documents
now called the Bible. Despite the passage of 2,000 years he has still left
millions without the knowledge or benefit of his teachings.
Man has been able to create world wide communications systems such as
radio,TV and cell phones. Why didn't God use his awesome powers to reach
all of his subjects directly via some efficient similer communications
system. Why doesn't he now?
The answer is simple. This whole Christian/Jesus belief system is pure myth.
--
Bill Mech
Mt 7:13 Enter through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and spacious and
broad is the way that leads away to destruction, and many are those who are
entering through it.
Mt 7:14 But the gate is narrow (contracted by pressure) and the way is
straitened and compressed that leads away to life, and few are those who find
it. [Deut. 30:19; Jer. 21:8]
Mt 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside
they are devouring wolves. [Ezek. 22:27]
7. Conclusion: call to decision and commitment (7:13-27)
a. Two ways (7:13-14)
two ways (vv. 13-14), two trees (vv. 15-20), two claims (vv. 21-23), and two
builders (vv. 24-27). They focus on eschatological judgment and so make it plain
that the theme is still the kingdom of heaven. But if some will not enter it
(vv. 13-14, 21-23), the sole basis for such a tragedy is their response to
Jesus' words.
13-14 The general picture here is clear enough: there are two gates, two roads,
two crowds, two destinations. The "narrow" gate is clearly restrictive and does
not permit entrance to what Jesus prohibits. The "wide" gate seems far more
inviting. The "broad" road is spacious and accommodates the crowd and their
baggage; the other road is "narrow" and restricting, because it is the way of
persecution and opposition--a major theme in Matthew (see comment on 5:10-12;
cf. Ac 14:22).
But the two roads are not ends in themselves. The narrow road leads to life,
i.e., to the consummated kingdom (cf. vv. 21-23); but the broad road leads to
eternal death (cf. 25:34, 46; Jn 17:12; Ro 9:22; et al.). Democratic decisions
do not determine truth and righteousness in the kingdom; the way that leads to
life is exclusively by revelation.
It seems best to regard the gate as something entered in this life as one begins
the path of discipleship. Entrance through the gate into the narrow way of
persecution begins now but issues in the consummated kingdom at the other end of
that way. In other words, even the beginning of this path to life is
restrictive.
er.....exactly what are we supposed to have achieved here.....?
Brownie points with the sky demon...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
The_Sage
2003-10-05 00:05:17 UTC
Permalink
Date written: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 19:30:02 GMT
The Jesus myth is no more believable than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
Agreed except that the Jesus myth is enforced more than the other competeing
beliefs.
The only reason adults cling to this myth is the inherent fear of death and
the potential life after death. Who wants to burn eternally in hell. Who
does not hope to live a wonderful eternal life in heaven? This is the opiate
that bolsters the illogical religious beliefs.
It isn't just because of the offer of a life in Heaven that persuades people to
beleive, it is because you have no choice -- you either accept Jesus and go to
Heaven or reject Jesus and go to Hell. Of course, that isn't really a choice
then, is it? It is an ultimatum: Do what Jesus says or he will kill you and your
family.
Just consider how ridiculous and totally illogical the foundation of the
Christian belief system is.
Keep in mind that God is supposedly all powerful and creator of the heavens,
the earth and all the creatures in the Universe.
More importantly, keep in mind that God is supposed to be the most loving, kind,
merciful, and resonable person in the Universe. With that in mind, let's read
on...
This all powerful God, who created the human race with it's multitude of
imperfections and ignorance, then sent God the son to earth having him born
of the virgin Mary. He then had him grow up normally from child hood to
adulthood with the profession of an illiterate carpenter as an adult.
That isn't the way the story goes, but it is good enough for government work.
He then preached a variant of Judaism in a small area of the middle East.
His preaching reached only a miniscule portion of the worlds population at
that time. The millions that were born and died prior to his coming received
non of his religious instruction and lived and died without its benefits.
The other millions that he did not reach with his preachings like wise lived
and died without the benefit of his teachings and pronouncements.
The Mormons have an answer for that.
Jesus then let the Romans arrest him and painfully and cruelly kill him by
nailing him to a cross with two common criminals. What could be the purpose
of this for an omnipotent God?
Exactly. A god who believes in mercy over sacrifice and who said that pagan
sacrifices of people was immoral and should never be allowed and is something
that He would have never even dreamed of doing...turns around and asks his son
to commit suicide in exactly this manner!
After all his grossly inefficient and ineffective teaching and crusifiction
he rose from his crypt and went back to heaven from whence he came.
He left behind no documents or writings of his own, as evidence of his
instructions to the human race. Instead he left it to fallible humans to
document his instructions in frequently varied and contradictory documents
now called the Bible. Despite the passage of 2,000 years he has still left
millions without the knowledge or benefit of his teachings.
Why do you even act like that obviously phony story is even remotely true?
People do not rise from the dead. No one ever saw someone risen from the dead.
Jesus never existed. The whole thing is poorly contrived storytale and if people
in general weren't so gullible and unthinking, no one would ever believe it.
Man has been able to create world wide communications systems such as
radio,TV and cell phones. Why didn't God use his awesome powers to reach
all of his subjects directly via some efficient similer communications
system. Why doesn't he now?
Because God is obviously a deadbeat Father who has abandoned his children.
The answer is simple. This whole Christian/Jesus belief system is pure myth.
It is a myth but not for the reasons you cite. Number one, it isn't supported by
history. There are no secular sources that support the existence of any Jesus.
The story of Jesus was a ripoff of other myths, like Mitra and Tammuz. Much of
the Old and New Testament are riddled with inaccurate science, make believe
history, and false prophecies. The OT didn't exist until 1008BC. The NT didn't
begin to exist until at least 100 years after the alleged events took place, but
the NT didn't exist in it's entirety until about 300AD.

The Sage

=============================================================
My Home Page : http://members.cox.net/the.sage

"The biggest problem in the world, could have been solved
when it was small..." -- Lao Tzu
=============================================================
onegod
2003-10-05 00:50:33 UTC
Permalink
One major problem is existance is religious belief.

And nothing is really gained if you believe everything is science, thus no
real will to do anything.

So there's nothing wrong in believing in something and try do good. After
all, even if it was false
and evil, it would not matter if we were just made purely of matter and no
will or soul anyway.
In other words, if natural disaster kills or cause harm... it is NOT evil
earth/weather.
Post by Bill
The Jesus myth is no more believable than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
Blast Femur
2003-10-05 02:11:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by onegod
One major problem is existance is religious belief.
And nothing is really gained if you believe everything is science,
thus no real will to do anything.
So there's nothing wrong in believing in something and try do good.
After all, even if it was false
There is, when you become so strong in your belief you are willing to risk
you own life to take the lives of those that don't agree with you.
--
Blast Femur

______________

So, what are you going to do with the first 18,547,387,259,122,090 years of
eternity?
onegod
2003-10-05 03:05:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Blast Femur
Post by onegod
One major problem is existance is religious belief.
And nothing is really gained if you believe everything is science,
thus no real will to do anything.
So there's nothing wrong in believing in something and try do good.
After all, even if it was false
There is, when you become so strong in your belief you are willing to risk
you own life to take the lives of those that don't agree with you.
Point is though... If we are just a form of matter without will or souls ,
then it dont really matter it is held together and seemingly act in orderly
matter. :) Or go back in to form dust...

Of course things that more evil than suicide bomb etc. Are inciting and
tricking iraq to attack iran, and technology and ingredients for wmd..
Selling kwait diagnally dilling equipment company to steal iraqi oil. And
telling iraqi that usa will not interfer.

This probably costed 300,000 lives directly, and resulting 1million death
due to sanctions. Of course part of death was due to kurd etc being killed
by saddam. But, you cant blame saddam if they were trying to over throw (in
other words, kill saddam) incited once again by usa.

These evil people are oil/war merchant profiteer that incite and make money
from death and destruction.

And if you cant believe there's people like that in usa.... Look at
tabacco companies, millions of death, millions of disease... YET LEGAL.
You can blame the smokers.... But then, it is suicidal behavior were
incited by ads etc.
Liz
2003-10-05 14:20:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by onegod
Post by Blast Femur
Post by onegod
One major problem is existance is religious belief.
And nothing is really gained if you believe everything is science,
thus no real will to do anything.
So there's nothing wrong in believing in something and try do good.
After all, even if it was false
There is, when you become so strong in your belief you are willing to risk
you own life to take the lives of those that don't agree with you.
Point is though... If we are just a form of matter without will or souls ,
then it dont really matter it is held together and seemingly act in orderly
matter. :) Or go back in to form dust...
You seem to need some type of cosmic significance in order to justify
your existence. I do not. Certainly, my dying would not be noticed
other than by my friends and those who love me, but I am content that
while I live I am happy and fulfilled as an individual who loves and
lives with a sense of adventure and joy. I have no need for a
supernatural being to confer meaning upon my life.

<snip rant about war, terrorism and tobacco companies>

What has God® done to prevent such evil?



Liz #658 BAAWA

Faith is a method designed to keep a person willfully ignorant of the odds
by arbitrarily assigning certainty where certainty is not justified. - Denis Loubet
Elroy Willis
2003-10-05 15:32:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Point is though... If we are just a form of matter without will or souls ,
then it dont really matter it is held together and seemingly act in orderly
matter. :) Or go back in to form dust...
You seem to need some type of cosmic significance in order to justify
your existence. I do not. Certainly, my dying would not be noticed
other than by my friends and those who love me,
Don't forget the insurance company. I hope you have some type of
life insurance... Whether your insurance company is your friend or
loves you is a matter of opinion, I suppose... :-)
Post by Liz
but I am content that while I live I am happy and fulfilled as an individual
who loves and lives with a sense of adventure and joy.
And fear no boogeymen or devils or gods... Pity for those who do, is
all I can say.
Post by Liz
I have no need for a supernatural being to confer meaning upon my life.
Me either. I wonder what causes some people to need one?
Post by Liz
<snip rant about war, terrorism and tobacco companies>
What has God® done to prevent such evil?
He convinced the tobacco sellers to put warning labels on packages
of cigarettes?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
Liz
2003-10-05 16:11:14 UTC
Permalink
[-----]
Post by Elroy Willis
Post by Liz
<snip rant about war, terrorism and tobacco companies>
What has God® done to prevent such evil?
He convinced the tobacco sellers to put warning labels on packages
of cigarettes?
Considering he supposedly made tobacco plants in the first place, one
wonders why he didn't place the warning label directly on the leaf.


Liz #658 BAAWA

"Spiritually alive" apparently means that you are confusing your
internal mental constructs with actually existing things. Hans-Richard Gruemm
Mark K. Bilbo
2003-10-05 17:31:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liz
[-----]
Post by Elroy Willis
Post by Liz
<snip rant about war, terrorism and tobacco companies>
What has God® done to prevent such evil?
He convinced the tobacco sellers to put warning labels on packages
of cigarettes?
Considering he supposedly made tobacco plants in the first place, one
wonders why he didn't place the warning label directly on the leaf.
Or at least mention it in that silly book with all the other droning rules...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
Fistful of Nothing
2003-10-05 18:18:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Liz
[-----]
Post by Elroy Willis
Post by Liz
<snip rant about war, terrorism and tobacco companies>
What has God® done to prevent such evil?
He convinced the tobacco sellers to put warning labels on packages
of cigarettes?
Considering he supposedly made tobacco plants in the first place, one
wonders why he didn't place the warning label directly on the leaf.
Or at least mention it in that silly book with all the other droning rules...
Apparently God didn't know about Native Americans...
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
Mark K. Bilbo
2003-10-05 23:03:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Liz
[-----]
Post by Elroy Willis
Post by Liz
<snip rant about war, terrorism and tobacco companies>
What has God® done to prevent such evil?
He convinced the tobacco sellers to put warning labels on packages
of cigarettes?
Considering he supposedly made tobacco plants in the first place, one
wonders why he didn't place the warning label directly on the leaf.
Or at least mention it in that silly book with all the other droning
rules...
Apparently God didn't know about Native Americans...
An entire half of the planet no less.

Senility maybe?
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
georgann
2003-10-06 10:40:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Fistful of Nothing
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Liz
Considering he supposedly made tobacco plants in the first place, one
wonders why he didn't place the warning label directly on the leaf.
Or at least mention it in that silly book with all the other droning rules...
Apparently God didn't know about Native Americans...
An entire half of the planet no less.
georgann, Teflon/Bulova apologist wrote:

Why should God mention the Americas in His biography?

--
(`'·.¸(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)¸.·'´)
«´¨`·.¸¸ ¸¸.·´¨ `»

All your prophecy are belong to Christ!

(¸.·'´(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ `'·.¸)`'·.¸)`'·.¸)
Robibnikoff
2003-10-06 11:18:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by georgann
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Fistful of Nothing
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Liz
Considering he supposedly made tobacco plants in the first place, one
wonders why he didn't place the warning label directly on the leaf.
Or at least mention it in that silly book with all the other droning rules...
Apparently God didn't know about Native Americans...
An entire half of the planet no less.
Why should God mention the Americas in His biography?
Why not?

Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster
#1557
Elroy Willis
2003-10-05 19:44:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Liz
Post by Elroy Willis
Post by Liz
<snip rant about war, terrorism and tobacco companies>
What has God® done to prevent such evil?
He convinced the tobacco sellers to put warning labels on packages
of cigarettes?
Considering he supposedly made tobacco plants in the first place, one
wonders why he didn't place the warning label directly on the leaf.
Or at least mention it in that silly book with all the other droning rules...
Wasn't tobacco exported from America after it was discovered by
European explorers who came to America and took it back with them?
Or were there already European or Eastern societies which were growing
tobacco before it was exported from the US?
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
Mark K. Bilbo
2003-10-05 23:02:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Elroy Willis
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Liz
Post by Elroy Willis
Post by Liz
<snip rant about war, terrorism and tobacco companies>
What has God® done to prevent such evil?
He convinced the tobacco sellers to put warning labels on packages
of cigarettes?
Considering he supposedly made tobacco plants in the first place, one
wonders why he didn't place the warning label directly on the leaf.
Or at least mention it in that silly book with all the other droning rules...
Wasn't tobacco exported from America after it was discovered by
European explorers who came to America and took it back with them?
Or were there already European or Eastern societies which were growing
tobacco before it was exported from the US?
It's an American plant. If there were any other societies growing it
before the contact, it'd be news to me...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
Elroy Willis
2003-10-05 19:39:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liz
[-----]
Post by Elroy Willis
Post by Liz
<snip rant about war, terrorism and tobacco companies>
What has God® done to prevent such evil?
He convinced the tobacco sellers to put warning labels on packages
of cigarettes?
Considering he supposedly made tobacco plants in the first place, one
wonders why he didn't place the warning label directly on the leaf.
Same thing for Cocaine, Coffee, Cocoa , and Cannabis plants. Why
didn't the creator of the universe make them off limits like he
supposedly did with some fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and
evil?

Instead, it seems, he sent out missionaries who found out about
those things, and were tempted by them, and even brought them
back to their own countries.
--
Elroy Willis
EAP Chief Editor and Newshound
http://web2.airmail.net/~elo/news
Gringo
2003-10-05 22:12:36 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 19:39:23 GMT, Elroy Willis <***@airmail.net> wrote:

~Liz <***@donotspam.com> wrote in alt.atheism
~
~> Elroy Willis <***@airmail.net> wrote:
~>> Liz <***@donotspam.com> wrote in alt.atheism
~
~> [-----]
~
~>>> <snip rant about war, terrorism and tobacco companies>
~
~>>> What has God® done to prevent such evil?
~
~>> He convinced the tobacco sellers to put warning labels on packages
~>> of cigarettes?
~
~> Considering he supposedly made tobacco plants in the first place, one
~> wonders why he didn't place the warning label directly on the leaf.
~
~Same thing for Cocaine, Coffee, Cocoa , and Cannabis plants. Why
~didn't the creator of the universe make them off limits like he
~supposedly did with some fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and
~evil?
~
~Instead, it seems, he sent out missionaries who found out about
~those things, and were tempted by them, and even brought them
~back to their own countries.

Maybe the ACLU can sue god instead of McDonalds for not warning us that
more caloric intake than output can make you chubby?

Un hombre sabio utilizará su cerebro.
Un tonto utiliza el cerebro de otro.
w***@dastardly.dirty.deeds.done.dirt.cheap.llc
2003-10-05 20:51:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liz
[-----]
Post by Elroy Willis
Post by Liz
<snip rant about war, terrorism and tobacco companies>
What has God done to prevent such evil?
He convinced the tobacco sellers to put warning labels on packages
of cigarettes?
Considering he supposedly made tobacco plants in the first place, one
wonders why he didn't place the warning label directly on the leaf.
That is simply another xian canard, you see, ahone [Va. US. creator god
who does not want the worship of his creations], a rather boon drinking
companion did that. He gave it to the people for medicinal & spiritual use
only. It took the white man to abuse instead of use it.

walksalone who usually uses the term white man as a term for a type of
thinking, & does not limit to those of European descent only. Methinks its
time to head back to the den now.
Mark K. Bilbo
2003-10-05 17:31:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Point is though... If we are just a form of matter without will or souls ,
then it dont really matter it is held together and seemingly act in orderly
matter. :) Or go back in to form dust...
You seem to need some type of cosmic significance in order to justify
your existence. I do not. Certainly, my dying would not be noticed
other than by my friends and those who love me, but I am content that
while I live I am happy and fulfilled as an individual who loves and
lives with a sense of adventure and joy. I have no need for a
supernatural being to confer meaning upon my life.
Seconds?
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
onegod
2003-10-05 21:56:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Post by Blast Femur
Post by onegod
One major problem is existance is religious belief.
And nothing is really gained if you believe everything is science,
thus no real will to do anything.
So there's nothing wrong in believing in something and try do good.
After all, even if it was false
There is, when you become so strong in your belief you are willing to risk
you own life to take the lives of those that don't agree with you.
Point is though... If we are just a form of matter without will or souls ,
then it dont really matter it is held together and seemingly act in orderly
matter. :) Or go back in to form dust...
You seem to need some type of cosmic significance in order to justify
your existence. I do not. Certainly, my dying would not be noticed
other than by my friends and those who love me, but I am content that
while I live I am happy and fulfilled as an individual who loves and
lives with a sense of adventure and joy. I have no need for a
supernatural being to confer meaning upon my life.
That's odd. So it does not really matter to you how long you live etc?
Such as dying at 90 vs getting blown up by bomb? Of course if you look at
it scientifically, chances of you getting killed by relatives or ex lover
etc are probably thousands of times bigger.
Post by Liz
<snip rant about war, terrorism and tobacco companies>
What has God® done to prevent such evil?
I would say by creating human with capacity to have consious as well as care
and love? And natural selection to cooperate in order to survive?

Looking at it other way... Human created computer, and it is only OPTIONAL
to run anti-virus software. Similarly, it is probably optional for divine
intervention.

Some can believe creation god of the bigbang. I personally believe
observable universe is just a minor bang of something like black holes
coliding or something.

Only major question is... Was there some sort of divine intervention AFTER
so called universe creation. For that part, i personally chose to believe
there was. It is like loading software or planting seed. After all,
trying to be good is important to me and has meaning, NOT just because
breaking law can cause you to be arrested.
Liz
2003-10-05 22:31:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by onegod
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Post by Blast Femur
Post by onegod
One major problem is existance is religious belief.
And nothing is really gained if you believe everything is science,
thus no real will to do anything.
So there's nothing wrong in believing in something and try do good.
After all, even if it was false
There is, when you become so strong in your belief you are willing to
risk
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Post by Blast Femur
you own life to take the lives of those that don't agree with you.
Point is though... If we are just a form of matter without will or souls
,
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
then it dont really matter it is held together and seemingly act in
orderly
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
matter. :) Or go back in to form dust...
You seem to need some type of cosmic significance in order to justify
your existence. I do not. Certainly, my dying would not be noticed
other than by my friends and those who love me, but I am content that
while I live I am happy and fulfilled as an individual who loves and
lives with a sense of adventure and joy. I have no need for a
supernatural being to confer meaning upon my life.
That's odd.
No, enjoying life is *not odd. At least, it is not odd for me.
Although, it seems that your strange reading of my words is bit odd.
Post by onegod
So it does not really matter to you how long you live etc?
Where did I say that?
Post by onegod
Such as dying at 90 vs getting blown up by bomb?
I have no control over exactly when I will die. I have my
preferences, but I doubt if I actually get to choose. Do you think
that your preferences about death will be honored?
Post by onegod
Of course if you look at
it scientifically, chances of you getting killed by relatives or ex lover
etc are probably thousands of times bigger.
Or in my case, due to family history, chances are good that I'll die
from brain cancer.
Post by onegod
Post by Liz
<snip rant about war, terrorism and tobacco companies>
What has God® done to prevent such evil?
I would say by creating human with capacity to have consious as well as care
and love? And natural selection to cooperate in order to survive?
Yet, this obviously has not prevented anything about which you were
complaining.
Post by onegod
Looking at it other way... Human created computer, and it is only OPTIONAL
to run anti-virus software. Similarly, it is probably optional for divine
intervention.
Some can believe creation god of the bigbang. I personally believe
observable universe is just a minor bang of something like black holes
coliding or something.
You may speculate all you like. However, unless you support your
speculation with evidence, I feel no compunction to believe you.
Post by onegod
Only major question is... Was there some sort of divine intervention AFTER
so called universe creation.
That's not a major question to me. In fact, I don't find the question
to have any significance at all.
Post by onegod
For that part, i personally chose to believe
there was. It is like loading software or planting seed. After all,
trying to be good is important to me and has meaning, NOT just because
breaking law can cause you to be arrested.
Living a good life is important to me. However, I can achieve that
without making up stories about gods. Believing in unevidenced
supernatural beings is simply unnecessary for me to either "be good"
or live a meaningful life.


Liz #658 BAAWA

Faith is a method designed to keep a person willfully ignorant of the odds
by arbitrarily assigning certainty where certainty is not justified. - Denis Loubet
onegod
2003-10-06 04:04:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Post by Liz
supernatural being to confer meaning upon my life.
That's odd.
No, enjoying life is *not odd. At least, it is not odd for me.
Well, it conflict with your belief. It does not have to be supernatural
being.
Post by Liz
Although, it seems that your strange reading of my words is bit odd.
Not at all, i am just pointing out that conflict in YOUR FAITH.
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
So it does not really matter to you how long you live etc?
Where did I say that?
Well, if you TRUELY believe that you are just collection of matter then it
really should not matter :P
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Such as dying at 90 vs getting blown up by bomb?
I have no control over exactly when I will die. I have my
preferences, but I doubt if I actually get to choose. Do you think
that your preferences about death will be honored?
Yes. I believe i am good and I gets to go to heaven. :)
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Of course if you look at
it scientifically, chances of you getting killed by relatives or ex lover
etc are probably thousands of times bigger.
Or in my case, due to family history, chances are good that I'll die
from brain cancer.
It really dont matter though, everyone dies and you chose to believe you are
just made up of matter
with so called known defect in gene.
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
I would say by creating human with capacity to have consious as well as care
and love? And natural selection to cooperate in order to survive?
Yet, this obviously has not prevented anything about which you were
complaining.
What is your point? If fails one in few million, it does not mean nothing
was done. Clearly there are
several things that deters. And what make you think, absolute prevention
is GOOD?
Post by Liz
You may speculate all you like. However, unless you support your
speculation with evidence, I feel no compunction to believe you.
It is idiotic. You think ignorance is cure all. Evidance is clear,
observable universe seems to be expanding according to currently accepted
science. Light is source of life, regarless of if some
call it god or physical law that creat it.... Of course all this assume
that there is realiety.
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Only major question is... Was there some sort of divine intervention AFTER
so called universe creation.
That's not a major question to me. In fact, I don't find the question
to have any significance at all.
Well, you can chose to be ignorant, but pure science is just as faithful
idea.
Post by Liz
Living a good life is important to me.
Why is that? And is good life mean you dont care about OTHERS at all?
Post by Liz
However, I can achieve that without making up stories about gods.
Well, you have to believe in something. I am sure you believe killing
others without something relating to self defense is WRONG, and have some
moral, like dont beat up kids etc. This is superficial that you believe
others have value far beyond matter such as rock.
Post by Liz
Believing in unevidenced
supernatural beings is simply unnecessary for me to either "be good"
or live a meaningful life.
Well that's delusional then. Good and bad has no real meaning and we are
just recycled from dust to dust. Of course that is other word for
reigncarnation.
Post by Liz
Faith is a method designed to keep a person willfully ignorant of the odds
by arbitrarily assigning certainty where certainty is not justified. - Denis Loubet
Yeah, dont have too much absolute faith in something like science which only
exterpolate. ;)


Well, what my argument boil down to is basically morarity is form of
religious belief.
Mark K. Bilbo
2003-10-05 14:18:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by onegod
Point is though... If we are just a form of matter without will or souls ,
then it dont really matter it is held together and seemingly act in orderly
matter. :) Or go back in to form dust...
Nonsense.

Just because the evidence is that "meaning" isn't handed to us by
something outside, that does *not make it evaporate. Finding out that
"meaning" isn't something independent from humans doesn't cause life to
be "meaningless." It means, rather, that we're the ones who were creating
"meaning" all along.

And why stop now?
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
Fistful of Nothing
2003-10-05 18:16:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
Point is though... If we are just a form of matter without will or souls ,
then it dont really matter it is held together and seemingly act in orderly
matter. :) Or go back in to form dust...
Nonsense.
Just because the evidence is that "meaning" isn't handed to us by
something outside, that does *not make it evaporate. Finding out that
"meaning" isn't something independent from humans doesn't cause life to
be "meaningless." It means, rather, that we're the ones who were creating
"meaning" all along.
And why stop now?
I agree.
If this universe is more like a thought than a machine, perhaps
we were meant to create meaning.
mmmm.........interesting.
Perhaps we are THE conscious part of the universe?
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
onegod
2003-10-05 21:27:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
Point is though... If we are just a form of matter without will or souls ,
then it dont really matter it is held together and seemingly act in orderly
matter. :) Or go back in to form dust...
Nonsense.
Just because the evidence is that "meaning" isn't handed to us by
something outside, that does *not make it evaporate. Finding out that
"meaning" isn't something independent from humans doesn't cause life to
be "meaningless." It means, rather, that we're the ones who were creating
"meaning" all along.
And why stop now?
Well, i am NOT suggesting that. I am only suggesting the MEANINGLESSNESS
of believing in pure random existance. In other word, if you sneeze and
few thousand cells in your body die... it does not matter. However,
without some sort of SPECIAL VALUE assigned to person (such as will, soul)
then person is just form of matter and rearranging (death and going back to
dust etc.) dont matter.

So, my claim is that some SPECIAL VALUE for human life must be considered in
order for it worth anything.
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
Woden
2003-10-05 21:41:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by onegod
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Nonsense.
Just because the evidence is that "meaning" isn't handed to us by
something outside, that does *not make it evaporate. Finding out that
"meaning" isn't something independent from humans doesn't cause life
to be "meaningless." It means, rather, that we're the ones who were
creating "meaning" all along.
And why stop now?
Well, i am NOT suggesting that. I am only suggesting the
MEANINGLESSNESS of believing in pure random existance. In other
word, if you sneeze and few thousand cells in your body die... it does
not matter. However, without some sort of SPECIAL VALUE assigned to
person (such as will, soul) then person is just form of matter and
rearranging (death and going back to dust etc.) dont matter.
And why should all of this "matter" in some special or non-meaningless way
such that some "special value" must be assigned to a person?
Post by onegod
So, my claim is that some SPECIAL VALUE for human life must be
considered in order for it worth anything.
And how do you substanciate this claim?
--
Woden

"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
onegod
2003-10-05 22:04:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Woden
Post by onegod
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Nonsense.
Just because the evidence is that "meaning" isn't handed to us by
something outside, that does *not make it evaporate. Finding out that
"meaning" isn't something independent from humans doesn't cause life
to be "meaningless." It means, rather, that we're the ones who were
creating "meaning" all along.
And why stop now?
Well, i am NOT suggesting that. I am only suggesting the
MEANINGLESSNESS of believing in pure random existance. In other
word, if you sneeze and few thousand cells in your body die... it does
not matter. However, without some sort of SPECIAL VALUE assigned to
person (such as will, soul) then person is just form of matter and
rearranging (death and going back to dust etc.) dont matter.
And why should all of this "matter" in some special or non-meaningless way
such that some "special value" must be assigned to a person?
It is OPTIONAL, not MUST. For example, some lame excuse to kill horse with
broken leg as putting it out of misory. I would not want to see people die
just because of major health problems.
Or looking at it another way. If your relative was getting beat up, would
you try to help?
And is reducing risk so you would not die too early important to you?
Post by Woden
Post by onegod
So, my claim is that some SPECIAL VALUE for human life must be
considered in order for it worth anything.
And how do you substanciate this claim?
So, if someone kills you, you want society to ignore it and treat same way
if cockroach were killed?
Woden
2003-10-06 01:35:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by onegod
Post by Woden
Post by onegod
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Nonsense.
Just because the evidence is that "meaning" isn't handed to us by
something outside, that does *not make it evaporate. Finding out
that "meaning" isn't something independent from humans doesn't
cause life to be "meaningless." It means, rather, that we're the
ones who were creating "meaning" all along.
And why stop now?
Well, i am NOT suggesting that. I am only suggesting the
MEANINGLESSNESS of believing in pure random existance. In other
word, if you sneeze and few thousand cells in your body die... it
does not matter. However, without some sort of SPECIAL VALUE
assigned to person (such as will, soul) then person is just form of
matter and rearranging (death and going back to dust etc.) dont
matter.
And why should all of this "matter" in some special or
non-meaningless way such that some "special value" must be assigned
to a person?
It is OPTIONAL, not MUST. For example, some lame excuse to kill
horse with broken leg as putting it out of misory. I would not want
to see people die just because of major health problems.
I don't like to see it either, but that's how life goes and we don't have
sufficient medical knowledge to prevent it. What does that have to do with
people having some "special value"?
Post by onegod
Or looking at it another way. If your relative was getting beat up,
would you try to help?
And is reducing risk so you would not die too early important to you?
What does reducing the risk of early death have to do with any "special
value"?
Post by onegod
Post by Woden
Post by onegod
So, my claim is that some SPECIAL VALUE for human life must be
considered in order for it worth anything.
And how do you substanciate this claim?
So, if someone kills you, you want society to ignore it and treat
same way if cockroach were killed?
So you're saying that this "special value" is nothing more than species ego
and that as humans, we feel that we are somehow better than other species?
--
Woden

"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
onegod
2003-10-06 04:20:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Woden
Post by onegod
It is OPTIONAL, not MUST. For example, some lame excuse to kill
horse with broken leg as putting it out of misory. I would not want
to see people die just because of major health problems.
I don't like to see it either, but that's how life goes and we don't have
sufficient medical knowledge to prevent it. What does that have to do with
people having some "special value"?
I am talking about REAL things. People were KILLED for things much less
than broken legs. And analysis of argument allow me to come out with
fundamental point i am making...

Morality is faithful idea where something better occurs.
Post by Woden
Post by onegod
Or looking at it another way. If your relative was getting beat up,
would you try to help?
And is reducing risk so you would not die too early important to you?
What does reducing the risk of early death have to do with any "special
value"?
Well, value of life over rock. Does human life mean more to you than a
rock? Meaning, does human or life in general have special value that rock
dont have?
Post by Woden
So you're saying that this "special value" is nothing more than species ego
and that as humans,
we feel that we are somehow better than other species?
Well, i would not word it like you do in first half. And 2nd half is kind
of what i am saying.
Of course some believe rock, tree, temple, occupying some lands, or money
are more important than humans lol. On same note, i dont feel bad if my
body kills virus or germs.... or if i kill mosquito instead of feeding it so
it can live and reproduce 8-)
Liz
2003-10-05 22:17:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by onegod
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
Point is though... If we are just a form of matter without will or souls
,
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
then it dont really matter it is held together and seemingly act in
orderly
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
matter. :) Or go back in to form dust...
Nonsense.
Just because the evidence is that "meaning" isn't handed to us by
something outside, that does *not make it evaporate. Finding out that
"meaning" isn't something independent from humans doesn't cause life to
be "meaningless." It means, rather, that we're the ones who were creating
"meaning" all along.
And why stop now?
Well, i am NOT suggesting that. I am only suggesting the MEANINGLESSNESS
of believing in pure random existance.
Why would a natural existence be meaningless?
Post by onegod
In other word, if you sneeze and
few thousand cells in your body die... it does not matter. However,
without some sort of SPECIAL VALUE assigned to person (such as will, soul)
There is no evidence for soul.
Post by onegod
then person is just form of matter and rearranging (death and going back to
dust etc.) dont matter.
Of course, it doesn't matter on a cosmic scale. It does matter
tremendously to the individual. Why do you think that your personal
existence is so important that you need the hand of the divine to make
your life have any meaning?
Post by onegod
So, my claim is that some SPECIAL VALUE for human life must be considered in
order for it worth anything.
I value my life. Do you not value yours? Through empathy, I value
other human life. Can you not empathize?


Liz #658 BAAWA

"The Bible is a wonderful source of inspiration for those
who don't understand it." -- George Santayana
onegod
2003-10-05 23:03:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
Point is though... If we are just a form of matter without will or souls
,
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
then it dont really matter it is held together and seemingly act in
orderly
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
matter. :) Or go back in to form dust...
Nonsense.
Just because the evidence is that "meaning" isn't handed to us by
something outside, that does *not make it evaporate. Finding out that
"meaning" isn't something independent from humans doesn't cause life to
be "meaningless." It means, rather, that we're the ones who were creating
"meaning" all along.
And why stop now?
Well, i am NOT suggesting that. I am only suggesting the
MEANINGLESSNESS
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
of believing in pure random existance.
Why would a natural existence be meaningless?
Because it is just physical interaction of matters, and dont matter like
some chemical reaction of two atoms 14billion light years away if our
existance is just random. And I would want to believe I am consious and has
WILL and hopefully SOUL.
If you believe in pure random existance, then you only have false
consiousness and false belief that you have will, while in that reality
everything was fatalistic and your arrangement of matter PREdetermines
everthing that would have occurred.
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
In other word, if you sneeze and
few thousand cells in your body die... it does not matter. However,
without some sort of SPECIAL VALUE assigned to person (such as will, soul)
There is no evidence for soul.
Sure there is. Soul is a word and this word existed for long time. Of
course we are talking about
faith part, then i agree that there is no conclusive evidance. Otoh,
similarly, there's no conclusive evidance that your thought, consious, will
etc are all false and it is govern exclusively by random matter arrangement.
In other word, your consious and probably belief that you have will and can
CHOSE to do things you want.... is my evidance to you that you have ability
to think and there for different from other matter such as rock (even if you
believe it is false consious created by matters)..

/> existence is so important that you need the hand of the divine to make
Post by Liz
your life have any meaning?
Because without it, you just exist and your contribution did not mean
anything. And I care about the world long after i am gone etc.
Post by Liz
Why do you think that your personal
existence is so important that you need the hand of the divine to make
your life have any meaning?
It is NOT just my importance, but importance of LIFE itself. I want to see
it continue for billions of years and alternatively it is greater if MY
personal life can continue forever in so called heaven.
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
So, my claim is that some SPECIAL VALUE for human life must be considered in
order for it worth anything.
I value my life. Do you not value yours? Through empathy, I value
other human life. Can you not empathize?
See, your statement is contradiction. On one hand you dont have special
value or meaning. Yet on other hand you believe your life is worth more
than that of life of roach.

If you really really believe that you are just a random arrangement of
matter without being a SPECIAL EXISTANCE, . explain to me, why you value
yourself more than a ROCK or COCKROACH.

In other way of looking at thing.... Lets say earth was getting hit by some
object size of jupitor in few weeks, does that matter to you? Or it is
just another random event and univers continues with more randome events?
Mark K. Bilbo
2003-10-06 01:40:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by onegod
Because it is just physical interaction of matters
So what?
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
Liz
2003-10-06 03:13:14 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 20:40:57 -0500, "Mark K. Bilbo"
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
Because it is just physical interaction of matters
So what?
I take it that onegod doesn't find sex to be meaningful. That's too
bad, I rather like it myself. The physical interaction of matter can
be quite enjoyable.


Überwench #658 Now a *real* atheist!

Dame Liz the Undaunted BAAWA
Charter Member of SMASH
and Queen of the known universe
georgann
2003-10-06 10:42:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
Because it is just physical interaction of matters
So what?
I take it that onegod doesn't find sex to be meaningful.
georgann, Teflon/Bulova apologist wrote:

That would be incorrect of course. God knows more than we do just HOW
meaningful sex is.

--
(`'·.¸(`'·.¸(`'·.¸ ¸.·'´)¸.·'´)¸.·'´)
«´¨`·.¸¸ ¸¸.·´¨ `»

All your prophecy are belong to Christ!

(¸.·'´(¸.·'´(¸.·'´ `'·.¸)`'·.¸)`'·.¸)
Liz
2003-10-06 11:43:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by georgann
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
Because it is just physical interaction of matters
So what?
I take it that onegod doesn't find sex to be meaningful.
That would be incorrect of course. God knows more than we do just HOW
meaningful sex is.
Georgann, onegod is the handle of a person in this thread that thinks
that physical interaction between matter is meaningless. I wasn't
referring to God®. It would be helpful for communication if you try
to get some context before you dash off replies.



Liz #658 BAAWA

"Spiritually alive" apparently means that you are confusing your
internal mental constructs with actually existing things. Hans-Richard Gruemm
Lawrence Seib
2003-10-06 14:42:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by georgann
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
Because it is just physical interaction of matters
So what?
I take it that onegod doesn't find sex to be meaningful.
That would be incorrect of course. God knows more than we do just HOW
meaningful sex is.
So you are saying that God has experienced orgasm?

If God has sex organs, then they must be for the purpose
of procreation of his species. I wonder who
he would use the father of all *organs* with anyway?
Of coarse God might be a-sexual, being only cabable
of creating other species.

Larry
Fistful of Nothing
2003-10-06 05:37:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
Because it is just physical interaction of matters
So what?
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
C'mon Mark/
There was way more there to comment on.
Liz
2003-10-06 03:12:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
Point is though... If we are just a form of matter without will or
souls
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
,
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
then it dont really matter it is held together and seemingly act in
orderly
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
matter. :) Or go back in to form dust...
Nonsense.
Just because the evidence is that "meaning" isn't handed to us by
something outside, that does *not make it evaporate. Finding out that
"meaning" isn't something independent from humans doesn't cause life to
be "meaningless." It means, rather, that we're the ones who were
creating
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
"meaning" all along.
And why stop now?
Well, i am NOT suggesting that. I am only suggesting the
MEANINGLESSNESS
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
of believing in pure random existance.
Why would a natural existence be meaningless?
Because it is just physical interaction of matters, and dont matter like
some chemical reaction of two atoms 14billion light years away if our
existance is just random. And I would want to believe I am consious and has
WILL and hopefully SOUL.
Yes, I understand that it is what you *want to believe. That however
doesn't mean it is true. The only things that can be proven to exist
are physical interaction of matter/energy. Everything else is
speculation.
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
If you believe in pure random existance,
I don't believe in "pure random existence". There are physical forces
that confine what I can and can not do. I don't however believe that
a god is necessary for these forces to exist. There occur as a result
of the nature of the universe.
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
then you only have false
consiousness and false belief that you have will, while in that reality
everything was fatalistic and your arrangement of matter PREdetermines
everthing that would have occurred.
What are you on about? I don't believe in a determined universe. We
live in a probabilistic universe. Per Heisenberg, "The more precisely
the position is determined, the less precisely the momentum is known
in this instant, and vice versa." This means that there is no chosen
path for a particle, but a range of probabilities. The path can only
be known if it is measured, and it can not be measured prior to the
taking of the path.
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
In other word, if you sneeze and
few thousand cells in your body die... it does not matter. However,
without some sort of SPECIAL VALUE assigned to person (such as will,
soul)
Post by Liz
There is no evidence for soul.
Sure there is. Soul is a word and this word existed for long time.
Yes, there is evidence for the *word soul just as there is evidence
for the *word leprechaun. Both words have been in existence for a
long time. That, however, does not mean that there is a real object
that is identified with the word.
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Of
course we are talking about
faith part, then i agree that there is no conclusive evidance.
No, there is no evidence at all.
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Otoh,
similarly, there's no conclusive evidance that your thought, consious, will
etc are all false and it is govern exclusively by random matter arrangement.
I don't contend that I am a "random matter arrangement". I am, in
fact, a rather nonrandom matter arrangement grown to the specifics of
my unique DNA.
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
In other word, your consious and probably belief that you have will and can
CHOSE to do things you want.... is my evidance to you that you have ability
to think and there for different from other matter such as rock (even if you
believe it is false consious created by matters)..
Yes, I am different that a rock since a rock does not have DNA nor is
made of organic material. I am, however, not so very different from
other mammals such as apes, pigs, or mice. They, too, can think and
make decisions. Do you believe that they are also special because
they have a soul. Or are they less "special" than we are even though
they can think.
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
/> existence is so important that you need the hand of the divine to make
Post by Liz
your life have any meaning?
Because without it, you just exist and your contribution did not mean
anything. And I care about the world long after i am gone etc.
Whatever I contribute will mean the same whether there is a god or
there is not a god.
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Liz
Why do you think that your personal
existence is so important that you need the hand of the divine to make
your life have any meaning?
It is NOT just my importance, but importance of LIFE itself. I want to see
it continue for billions of years and alternatively it is greater if MY
personal life can continue forever in so called heaven.
ROTFL I don't think your personal preferences matter a whit to the
universe.
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
So, my claim is that some SPECIAL VALUE for human life must be considered
in
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
order for it worth anything.
I value my life. Do you not value yours? Through empathy, I value
other human life. Can you not empathize?
See, your statement is contradiction. On one hand you dont have special
value or meaning. Yet on other hand you believe your life is worth more
than that of life of roach.
You didn't answer my questions. And you (deliberately?) misunderstand
my answers. Can you not empathize without a god to give your life
meaning? Can you not care for others without divine instructions?

My answer was not a contradiction. *I give value to my life. I don't
need a proposed god to confer some sort of specialness on me or on
others in order to value them.
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
If you really really believe that you are just a random arrangement of
matter without being a SPECIAL EXISTANCE, . explain to me, why you value
yourself more than a ROCK or COCKROACH.
I give myself value.
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
In other way of looking at thing.... Lets say earth was getting hit by some
object size of jupitor in few weeks, does that matter to you? Or it is
just another random event and univers continues with more randome events?
It won't matter to me at all after it happens because I and you and
everyone else will be quite dead, and the Earth will no longer exist.

Does that thought frighten you?


Liz #658 BAAWA

Liz, you like most people do not want to have faith in
things which have no basis in reality. -- josalt
Fistful of Nothing
2003-10-06 05:56:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
Point is though... If we are just a form of matter without will or
souls
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
,
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
then it dont really matter it is held together and seemingly act in
orderly
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
matter. :) Or go back in to form dust...
Nonsense.
Just because the evidence is that "meaning" isn't handed to us by
something outside, that does *not make it evaporate. Finding out that
"meaning" isn't something independent from humans doesn't cause life to
be "meaningless." It means, rather, that we're the ones who were
creating
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
"meaning" all along.
And why stop now?
Well, i am NOT suggesting that. I am only suggesting the
MEANINGLESSNESS
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
of believing in pure random existance.
Why would a natural existence be meaningless?
Because it is just physical interaction of matters, and dont matter like
some chemical reaction of two atoms 14billion light years away if our
existance is just random. And I would want to believe I am consious and has
WILL and hopefully SOUL.
Yes, I understand that it is what you *want to believe. That however
doesn't mean it is true. The only things that can be proven to exist
are physical interaction of matter/energy. Everything else is
speculation.
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
If you believe in pure random existance,
I don't believe in "pure random existence". There are physical forces
that confine what I can and can not do. I don't however believe that
a god is necessary for these forces to exist. There occur as a result
of the nature of the universe.
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
then you only have false
consiousness and false belief that you have will, while in that reality
everything was fatalistic and your arrangement of matter PREdetermines
everthing that would have occurred.
What are you on about? I don't believe in a determined universe. We
live in a probabilistic universe. Per Heisenberg, "The more precisely
the position is determined, the less precisely the momentum is known
in this instant, and vice versa." This means that there is no chosen
path for a particle, but a range of probabilities. The path can only
be known if it is measured, and it can not be measured prior to the
taking of the path.
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
In other word, if you sneeze and
few thousand cells in your body die... it does not matter. However,
without some sort of SPECIAL VALUE assigned to person (such as will,
soul)
Post by Liz
There is no evidence for soul.
Sure there is. Soul is a word and this word existed for long time.
Yes, there is evidence for the *word soul just as there is evidence
for the *word leprechaun. Both words have been in existence for a
long time. That, however, does not mean that there is a real object
that is identified with the word.
Just as there is no evidence for meaning, yet you seem to believe you have
it.
At least from your words.
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Of
course we are talking about
faith part, then i agree that there is no conclusive evidance.
No, there is no evidence at all.
We don't know that much yet anyway.
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Otoh,
similarly, there's no conclusive evidance that your thought, consious, will
etc are all false and it is govern exclusively by random matter arrangement.
I don't contend that I am a "random matter arrangement". I am, in
fact, a rather nonrandom matter arrangement grown to the specifics of
my unique DNA.
You know what he meant.
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
In other word, your consious and probably belief that you have will and can
CHOSE to do things you want.... is my evidance to you that you have ability
to think and there for different from other matter such as rock (even if you
believe it is false consious created by matters)..
Yes, I am different that a rock since a rock does not have DNA nor is
made of organic material. I am, however, not so very different from
other mammals such as apes, pigs, or mice. They, too, can think and
make decisions. Do you believe that they are also special because
they have a soul. Or are they less "special" than we are even though
they can think.
You know there is a huge difference.
Pigs don't philosophise on the interent.
Br serious will you?
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
/> existence is so important that you need the hand of the divine to make
Post by Liz
your life have any meaning?
Because without it, you just exist and your contribution did not mean
anything. And I care about the world long after i am gone etc.
Whatever I contribute will mean the same whether there is a god or
there is not a god.
Utter nonsense.
If there is a God, then the enitire nature of existence has a certain
quality,
if not, then it has a different quality. For instance, if Odin (for example)
does exist and you preach peace your whole life and become quite adept at it
and famous for it, you would probably piss him off. If Odin doesn't exist,
then,
the aformentioned effect would never take form. There are a myriad of
possible effects and meanings depending on whether there is or is not
a god.
Your dismissal is intellectually dishonest.
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Liz
Why do you think that your personal
existence is so important that you need the hand of the divine to make
your life have any meaning?
It is NOT just my importance, but importance of LIFE itself. I want to see
it continue for billions of years and alternatively it is greater if MY
personal life can continue forever in so called heaven.
ROTFL I don't think your personal preferences matter a whit to the
universe.
What evidence do you have of that?
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
So, my claim is that some SPECIAL VALUE for human life must be considered
in
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
order for it worth anything.
I value my life. Do you not value yours? Through empathy, I value
other human life. Can you not empathize?
See, your statement is contradiction. On one hand you dont have special
value or meaning. Yet on other hand you believe your life is worth more
than that of life of roach.
You didn't answer my questions. And you (deliberately?) misunderstand
my answers. Can you not empathize without a god to give your life
meaning? Can you not care for others without divine instructions?
Of course one can.
But you cannot ignore the fact that, if there is nothing more than matter
and energy, there is no greater governing power over morality. We made it
up. Therefore, other than getting along and populating the planet with our
DNA,
there is no real intrinsic value to morality. In other words, killing
someone for
snoring is "really" wrong. Just another mammal that won't procreate further.
Post by Liz
My answer was not a contradiction. *I give value to my life. I don't
need a proposed god to confer some sort of specialness on me or on
others in order to value them.
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
If you really really believe that you are just a random arrangement of
matter without being a SPECIAL EXISTANCE, . explain to me, why you value
yourself more than a ROCK or COCKROACH.
I give myself value.
Based on what? Yourself?
That's good and well, but after you die, it will be meaningless, and
will really have had no meaing outside of your own mind. A temporary
tool to get you through life's hardships completely without any
real value. Sounds familiar doesn't it?
Gaze into the mirror.
LOL
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
In other way of looking at thing.... Lets say earth was getting hit by some
object size of jupitor in few weeks, does that matter to you? Or it is
just another random event and univers continues with more randome events?
It won't matter to me at all after it happens because I and you and
everyone else will be quite dead, and the Earth will no longer exist.
Does that thought frighten you?
I'm not afraid to admit that that frightens me.
Even from a naturalistic viewpoint it should be frightening.
You want to live, don't you?
Post by Liz
Liz #658 BAAWA
Liz, you like most people do not want to have faith in
things which have no basis in reality. -- josalt
Fistful of Nothing
2003-10-06 06:19:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fistful of Nothing
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
Point is though... If we are just a form of matter without will or
souls
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
,
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
then it dont really matter it is held together and seemingly act
in
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
orderly
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
matter. :) Or go back in to form dust...
Nonsense.
Just because the evidence is that "meaning" isn't handed to us by
something outside, that does *not make it evaporate. Finding out
that
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
"meaning" isn't something independent from humans doesn't cause
life
Post by Fistful of Nothing
to
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
be "meaningless." It means, rather, that we're the ones who were
creating
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
"meaning" all along.
And why stop now?
Well, i am NOT suggesting that. I am only suggesting the
MEANINGLESSNESS
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
of believing in pure random existance.
Why would a natural existence be meaningless?
Because it is just physical interaction of matters, and dont matter like
some chemical reaction of two atoms 14billion light years away if our
existance is just random. And I would want to believe I am consious
and
Post by Fistful of Nothing
has
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
WILL and hopefully SOUL.
Yes, I understand that it is what you *want to believe. That however
doesn't mean it is true. The only things that can be proven to exist
are physical interaction of matter/energy. Everything else is
speculation.
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
If you believe in pure random existance,
I don't believe in "pure random existence". There are physical forces
that confine what I can and can not do. I don't however believe that
a god is necessary for these forces to exist. There occur as a result
of the nature of the universe.
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
then you only have false
consiousness and false belief that you have will, while in that reality
everything was fatalistic and your arrangement of matter PREdetermines
everthing that would have occurred.
What are you on about? I don't believe in a determined universe. We
live in a probabilistic universe. Per Heisenberg, "The more precisely
the position is determined, the less precisely the momentum is known
in this instant, and vice versa." This means that there is no chosen
path for a particle, but a range of probabilities. The path can only
be known if it is measured, and it can not be measured prior to the
taking of the path.
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
In other word, if you sneeze and
few thousand cells in your body die... it does not matter.
However,
Post by Fistful of Nothing
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
without some sort of SPECIAL VALUE assigned to person (such as will,
soul)
Post by Liz
There is no evidence for soul.
Sure there is. Soul is a word and this word existed for long time.
Yes, there is evidence for the *word soul just as there is evidence
for the *word leprechaun. Both words have been in existence for a
long time. That, however, does not mean that there is a real object
that is identified with the word.
Just as there is no evidence for meaning, yet you seem to believe you have
it.
At least from your words.
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Of
course we are talking about
faith part, then i agree that there is no conclusive evidance.
No, there is no evidence at all.
We don't know that much yet anyway.
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Otoh,
similarly, there's no conclusive evidance that your thought, consious,
will
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
etc are all false and it is govern exclusively by random matter
arrangement.
Post by Liz
I don't contend that I am a "random matter arrangement". I am, in
fact, a rather nonrandom matter arrangement grown to the specifics of
my unique DNA.
You know what he meant.
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
In other word, your consious and probably belief that you have will and
can
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
CHOSE to do things you want.... is my evidance to you that you have
ability
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
to think and there for different from other matter such as rock (even
if
Post by Fistful of Nothing
you
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
believe it is false consious created by matters)..
Yes, I am different that a rock since a rock does not have DNA nor is
made of organic material. I am, however, not so very different from
other mammals such as apes, pigs, or mice. They, too, can think and
make decisions. Do you believe that they are also special because
they have a soul. Or are they less "special" than we are even though
they can think.
You know there is a huge difference.
Pigs don't philosophise on the interent.
Br serious will you?
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
/> existence is so important that you need the hand of the divine to make
Post by Liz
your life have any meaning?
Because without it, you just exist and your contribution did not mean
anything. And I care about the world long after i am gone etc.
Whatever I contribute will mean the same whether there is a god or
there is not a god.
Utter nonsense.
If there is a God, then the enitire nature of existence has a certain
quality,
if not, then it has a different quality. For instance, if Odin (for example)
does exist and you preach peace your whole life and become quite adept at it
and famous for it, you would probably piss him off. If Odin doesn't exist,
then,
the aformentioned effect would never take form. There are a myriad of
possible effects and meanings depending on whether there is or is not
a god.
Your dismissal is intellectually dishonest.
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Liz
Why do you think that your personal
existence is so important that you need the hand of the divine to make
your life have any meaning?
It is NOT just my importance, but importance of LIFE itself. I want to
see
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
it continue for billions of years and alternatively it is greater if MY
personal life can continue forever in so called heaven.
ROTFL I don't think your personal preferences matter a whit to the
universe.
What evidence do you have of that?
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
So, my claim is that some SPECIAL VALUE for human life must be
considered
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
in
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
order for it worth anything.
I value my life. Do you not value yours? Through empathy, I value
other human life. Can you not empathize?
See, your statement is contradiction. On one hand you dont have special
value or meaning. Yet on other hand you believe your life is worth more
than that of life of roach.
You didn't answer my questions. And you (deliberately?) misunderstand
my answers. Can you not empathize without a god to give your life
meaning? Can you not care for others without divine instructions?
Of course one can.
But you cannot ignore the fact that, if there is nothing more than matter
and energy, there is no greater governing power over morality. We made it
up. Therefore, other than getting along and populating the planet with our
DNA,
there is no real intrinsic value to morality. In other words, killing
someone for
snoring is "really" wrong. Just another mammal that won't procreate further.
Sorry, meant ISN'T really wrong.
Post by Fistful of Nothing
Post by Liz
My answer was not a contradiction. *I give value to my life. I don't
need a proposed god to confer some sort of specialness on me or on
others in order to value them.
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
If you really really believe that you are just a random arrangement of
matter without being a SPECIAL EXISTANCE, . explain to me, why you value
yourself more than a ROCK or COCKROACH.
I give myself value.
Based on what? Yourself?
That's good and well, but after you die, it will be meaningless, and
will really have had no meaing outside of your own mind. A temporary
tool to get you through life's hardships completely without any
real value. Sounds familiar doesn't it?
Gaze into the mirror.
LOL
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
In other way of looking at thing.... Lets say earth was getting hit by
some
Post by Liz
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
object size of jupitor in few weeks, does that matter to you? Or it is
just another random event and univers continues with more randome events?
It won't matter to me at all after it happens because I and you and
everyone else will be quite dead, and the Earth will no longer exist.
Does that thought frighten you?
I'm not afraid to admit that that frightens me.
Even from a naturalistic viewpoint it should be frightening.
You want to live, don't you?
Post by Liz
Liz #658 BAAWA
Liz, you like most people do not want to have faith in
things which have no basis in reality. -- josalt
Liz
2003-10-06 12:40:50 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 05:56:43 GMT, "Fistful of Nothing"
[----]
Post by Fistful of Nothing
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Post by Liz
There is no evidence for soul.
Sure there is. Soul is a word and this word existed for long time.
Yes, there is evidence for the *word soul just as there is evidence
for the *word leprechaun. Both words have been in existence for a
long time. That, however, does not mean that there is a real object
that is identified with the word.
Just as there is no evidence for meaning, yet you seem to believe you have
it.
At least from your words.
Yes, wonderful, Fist! At last there is some understanding of my
position. Meaning is subjective. The only meaning for my life is
that which I give to it. There is no objective universal meaning that
is conferred upon humans from a divine source.

Meaning does not exist outside the mind that conceives value. In the
same way, souls, gods, and leprechauns do not exist independent of a
mind who believes in them.
Post by Fistful of Nothing
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Of
course we are talking about
faith part, then i agree that there is no conclusive evidance.
No, there is no evidence at all.
We don't know that much yet anyway.
Since "we don't know that much", will you agree that there is no
supporting evidence for souls *yet? Given the lack of evidence *yet,
I have no reason to believe in its existence. If some
noncontroversial evidence is produced, of course, I will reevaluate my
position. However, as things stand, there is really no reason to
believe in all manner of proposed things and beings that people say
*may be possible, but fail to support with actual objective evidence.
Post by Fistful of Nothing
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Otoh,
similarly, there's no conclusive evidance that your thought, consious,
will
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
etc are all false and it is govern exclusively by random matter
arrangement.
Post by Liz
I don't contend that I am a "random matter arrangement". I am, in
fact, a rather nonrandom matter arrangement grown to the specifics of
my unique DNA.
You know what he meant.
With onegod, I'm unsure that he understands what I mean. His choice
of words dictated the answer since I do not claim that I am a "random
matter arrangement". I do not agree with his premise and refuse to
answer the question as if I accept his viewpoint. If he meant
something else, then it behooves him to be more explicit.

Please don't assume that you know what I'm thinking or that I need to
reply to your satisfaction.
Post by Fistful of Nothing
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
In other word, your consious and probably belief that you have will and
can
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
CHOSE to do things you want.... is my evidance to you that you have
ability
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
to think and there for different from other matter such as rock (even if
you
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
believe it is false consious created by matters)..
Yes, I am different that a rock since a rock does not have DNA nor is
made of organic material. I am, however, not so very different from
other mammals such as apes, pigs, or mice. They, too, can think and
make decisions. Do you believe that they are also special because
they have a soul. Or are they less "special" than we are even though
they can think.
You know there is a huge difference.
Pigs don't philosophise on the interent.
Br serious will you?
I am totally serious. You are anthropomorphizing, which is perfectly
natural. Because you are a human, you see human traits to be
valuable. You find indulging in philosophy and typing on a computer
to be valuable skills only because humans do them and other species do
not. You give value to things you do and then extend that sense of
value to others most like you -- other humans. You don't need a god
to give this value to humans. You automatically recognize it.

Thank you for this wonderful example of my point.
Post by Fistful of Nothing
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
/> existence is so important that you need the hand of the divine to make
Post by Liz
your life have any meaning?
Because without it, you just exist and your contribution did not mean
anything. And I care about the world long after i am gone etc.
Whatever I contribute will mean the same whether there is a god or
there is not a god.
Utter nonsense.
If there is a God, then the enitire nature of existence has a certain
quality,
if not, then it has a different quality.
How can we tell the difference?
Post by Fistful of Nothing
For instance, if Odin (for example)
does exist and you preach peace your whole life and become quite adept at it
and famous for it, you would probably piss him off. If Odin doesn't exist,
then,
the aformentioned effect would never take form.
What effect does Odin's pissiness have to do with the real world?
AFAACT, neither Odin nor any other god has been able to interface with
the physical world. Therefore, any consequence for my actions will
not change my life or my contributions, but only my supposed afterlife
for which there is no evidence that it even exists.
Post by Fistful of Nothing
There are a myriad of
possible effects and meanings depending on whether there is or is not
a god.
Your dismissal is intellectually dishonest.
LOL Some people claim that gods exist, and others don't believe their
claims. Yet, we all live in the same world. Either way, the world is
exactly as it is, and if you suddenly stop believing in a god, the
world will not have changed. My contribution will remain exactly the
same, whether there are gods or no gods because I am contributing
under the same present conditions no matter what the truth of the god
position is.

Certainly, those that believe differently than I do might see my
contribution as having a different meaning, but that does not
objectively change the outcome of my contribution. However, those
viewpoints are not dependent upon the reality of God®, but instead,
they are dependent upon the subjective belief of the person who
evaluates my contribution. I am intellectually honest because I
realize the god/no god position has no effect on objective reality.
Post by Fistful of Nothing
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Post by Liz
Why do you think that your personal
existence is so important that you need the hand of the divine to make
your life have any meaning?
It is NOT just my importance, but importance of LIFE itself. I want to
see
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
it continue for billions of years and alternatively it is greater if MY
personal life can continue forever in so called heaven.
ROTFL I don't think your personal preferences matter a whit to the
universe.
What evidence do you have of that?
ROTFL
Post by Fistful of Nothing
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
So, my claim is that some SPECIAL VALUE for human life must be
considered
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
in
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
order for it worth anything.
I value my life. Do you not value yours? Through empathy, I value
other human life. Can you not empathize?
See, your statement is contradiction. On one hand you dont have special
value or meaning. Yet on other hand you believe your life is worth more
than that of life of roach.
You didn't answer my questions. And you (deliberately?) misunderstand
my answers. Can you not empathize without a god to give your life
meaning? Can you not care for others without divine instructions?
Of course one can.
But you cannot ignore the fact that, if there is nothing more than matter
and energy, there is no greater governing power over morality. We made it
up. Therefore, other than getting along and populating the planet with our
DNA,
there is no real intrinsic value to morality. In other words, killing
someone for
snoring is "really" wrong. Just another mammal that won't procreate further.
Would you really kill some one if you believed that God® did not
exist? If you could, then your claim to empathy was a lie. If the
basis of your morality is merely a set of arbitrary rules that you
suppose were handed to you by a supernatural being, you aren't moral.
You are merely a robot toeing the line because you want to be rewarded
or at least not punished for your behavior.

Moral people understand and choose ethical behavior. They just don't
obey.
Post by Fistful of Nothing
Post by Liz
My answer was not a contradiction. *I give value to my life. I don't
need a proposed god to confer some sort of specialness on me or on
others in order to value them.
Post by onegod
If you really really believe that you are just a random arrangement of
matter without being a SPECIAL EXISTANCE, . explain to me, why you value
yourself more than a ROCK or COCKROACH.
I give myself value.
Based on what? Yourself?
Yes, myself and the society in which I live.
Post by Fistful of Nothing
That's good and well, but after you die, it will be meaningless,
ROTFL Of course it will be meaningless, I'll be dead. I do think
that you are starting to understand.
Post by Fistful of Nothing
and
will really have had no meaing outside of your own mind.
Exactly as it is now.
Post by Fistful of Nothing
A temporary
tool to get you through life's hardships completely without any
real value. Sounds familiar doesn't it?
No, I really have no hardships. I and my loved ones are intelligent,
industrious, and fortunate. My life is a very, very good one.
Post by Fistful of Nothing
Gaze into the mirror.
LOL
It seems the difference between us is that I like what I see in the
mirror.
Post by Fistful of Nothing
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
In other way of looking at thing.... Lets say earth was getting hit by
some
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
object size of jupitor in few weeks, does that matter to you? Or it is
just another random event and univers continues with more randome events?
It won't matter to me at all after it happens because I and you and
everyone else will be quite dead, and the Earth will no longer exist.
Does that thought frighten you?
I'm not afraid to admit that that frightens me.
Even from a naturalistic viewpoint it should be frightening.
Yet, I am not frightened. I thought that your belief in God® took
away your fear, but he can't even accomplish even that small feat.
Post by Fistful of Nothing
You want to live, don't you?
Certainly, I want to live as long as I can function well in body and
in mind. However, I am not prepared to live as slave to fear of those
things that I can not control. I will instead live with love and zest
as long as I am able without fear and without groveling to some
supernatural zombie in a vain attempt to extend my life.


Liz #658 BAAWA

I think that naming your ignorance God and pretending that,
having named it, you have converted ignorance to knowledge
is a sorry approach to the unknown. -- John Popelish
onegod
2003-10-06 06:11:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liz
Yes, I understand that it is what you *want to believe. That however
doesn't mean it is true. The only things that can be proven to exist
are physical interaction of matter/energy. Everything else is
speculation.
Existance cannot be proven. You claiming we are just interraction of matter
and energy there for ability to comprehends are determind by matter and
energy and it would be illogical to argue that such psudo-consious mind some
how have absolute ability to be right. In other word, googleplex to
googleplex power number is hard to comprehend and if things are off by one
from such number, our mind cannot comprehend.
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
If you believe in pure random existance,
I don't believe in "pure random existence". There are physical forces
that confine what I can and can not do.
This is very ODD. Sound like you are giving yourself ability to CHOSE, and
physical forces
confine that ability. So where is this ability/consious to make DECISION
coming from? Besause if it was pure matter and energy interraction, it is
PREDETERMINED, and adding randomness is not meaningful here since it is not
controllable. If you want reward, it is like this.... Computer and
software with some psuedo random number.

So if you believe you have will and choice etc., if it was pure
matter/energy/random interaction then it is just delusion that you thought
YOU made the consious decision.
Post by Liz
I don't however believe that
a god is necessary for these forces to exist. There occur as a result
of the nature of the universe.
Well, you can call it nature's law or god's law, either way it is faithful
idea that connot ever be proven until you go to heaven etc.
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
then you only have false
consiousness and false belief that you have will, while in that reality
everything was fatalistic and your arrangement of matter PREdetermines
everthing that would have occurred.
What are you on about? I don't believe in a determined universe. We
live in a probabilistic universe.
Another faithful idea.
Post by Liz
Per Heisenberg, "The more precisely
Yes, there's are uncertainty principle as well as thermodinamic as well as
quantom physics etc.
However, they are just a theory with equations that work VERY WELL with
range of current and past and probably near future observations. Basically,
science is really not PROOF, but it is invalidation. Things are accepted if
it sound reasonable and there can be no proof against it. As an example,
big bang theory was accepted more or less... though i think my theory is
more plausable about our observable universe is nothing more than collision
of 2 black holes and so called bigbang is not unique which i equate to earth
being center. 8-)
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Sure there is. Soul is a word and this word existed for long time.
Yes, there is evidence for the *word soul just as there is evidence
for the *word leprechaun. Both words have been in existence for a
long time. That, however, does not mean that there is a real object
that is identified with the word.
Soul by definition is probably not real object. I assume you mean real as
in physical world object which follows generally accepted physical science
laws.
Post by Liz
No, there is no evidence at all.
There can not be proof for anything. However, the evidance is your consious
mind itself.
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
Otoh,
similarly, there's no conclusive evidance that your thought, consious, will
etc are all false and it is govern exclusively by random matter arrangement.
I don't contend that I am a "random matter arrangement". I am, in
fact, a rather nonrandom matter arrangement grown to the specifics of
my unique DNA.
Gee... What is dna... just a random arrangement of molecules which have
certain tendencies. So is rocks ;) Look at how crystal, or how spherical
stars are etc.
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
In other word, your consious and probably belief that you have will and can
CHOSE to do things you want.... is my evidance to you that you have ability
to think and there for different from other matter such as rock (even if you
believe it is false consious created by matters)..
Yes, I am different that a rock since a rock does not have DNA nor is
made of organic material.
This is clearly wrong. You can be dehydrated and crushed into rock
containing dna.
Post by Liz
I am, however, not so very different from
other mammals such as apes, pigs, or mice. They, too, can think and
make decisions. Do you believe that they are also special because
they have a soul. Or are they less "special" than we are even though
they can think.
It is moral question though. But if you are looking for MY OPINION, then
yes they are special but not to degree of humans and yes, that means "LESS"
special. Of course in modern society, it would not be acceptable for some
hindu to kill someone killing sacred cow for food ;)
Post by Liz
Whatever I contribute will mean the same whether there is a god or
there is not a god.
This is very doubtful but pointless to argue. For example, if you have sex
now for fun and did not try to have children. And god exist and proven to
your acceptance and it have specific rule against that and punish you
severorly, i am sure your behavior will change 8-)
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
It is NOT just my importance, but importance of LIFE itself. I want to see
it continue for billions of years and alternatively it is greater if MY
personal life can continue forever in so called heaven.
ROTFL I don't think your personal preferences matter a whit to the
universe.
And your opinion count? lol ;)
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
See, your statement is contradiction. On one hand you dont have special
value or meaning. Yet on other hand you believe your life is worth more
than that of life of roach.
You didn't answer my questions. And you (deliberately?) misunderstand
my answers. Can you not empathize without a god to give your life
meaning? Can you not care for others without divine instructions?
See, you are diviating and confusing me with some christian or something.
And beside that some statements are made using a question form.
Post by Liz
Can you not empathize without a god to give your life meaning?
This question is silly and does not provide any meaningful result. Without
god, emotion etc are just result of random arrangement of matter caused by
so call evolution (and genetics are just chemical tendency to form some
order, not much different than crystal etc.).
Post by Liz
My answer was not a contradiction. *I give value to my life. I don't
need a proposed god to confer some sort of specialness on me or on
others in order to value them.
What you fail to see is this. If you placed in a room with mosquito that
carry deadly disease, you will kill it because your life is more special
than that of mosquito. Your value is fine and normal, but meaningless if
things were pure science.
Post by Liz
I give myself value.
It still lacks reason why.... And it only make me believe you dont truely
believe that you are nothing more than arrangement of matter deep down.
Post by Liz
Post by onegod
In other way of looking at thing.... Lets say earth was getting hit by some
object size of jupitor in few weeks, does that matter to you? Or it is
just another random event and univers continues with more randome events?
It won't matter to me at all after it happens because I and you and
everyone else will be quite dead, and the Earth will no longer exist.
Does that thought frighten you?
Unfortunately, yes. Because although i have small faith. There for,
there's good fear of my personal death as well as good human race. Otoh, my
idea of heaven is pretty close to my perception of earth... land, food, sex
etc. and without requirements such as eating and drinking right amount for
optimum health.
none
2003-10-06 06:16:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by onegod
Post by Liz
Yes, I understand that it is what you *want to believe. That however
doesn't mean it is true. The only things that can be proven to exist
are physical interaction of matter/energy. Everything else is
speculation.
Existance cannot be proven.
I can prove it to you.

Go to the highest building in your local city. Take the elevator to the
highest floor and climb to the roof. Walk to the edge and then step off.
When your body hits the floor after accelerating at the rate of 32
ft/sec^2, the kinetic energy of your mass will heat up the ground slightly
and tear your internal organs to shreads.

If you believe you don't exist, this experiment won't affect you at all.
Post by onegod
You claiming we are just interraction of matter
and energy there for ability to comprehends are determind by matter and
energy and it would be illogical to argue that such psudo-consious mind some
how have absolute ability to be right. In other word, googleplex to
googleplex power number is hard to comprehend and if things are off by one
from such number, our mind cannot comprehend.
You have just written an incredibly complex sentence that cannot be parsed
to mean anything.

Geo
Atheist #15
onegod
2003-10-06 08:28:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by none
Post by onegod
Existance cannot be proven.
I can prove it to you.
Go to the highest building in your local city. Take the elevator to the
highest floor and climb to the roof. Walk to the edge and then step off.
When your body hits the floor after accelerating at the rate of 32
ft/sec^2, the kinetic energy of your mass will heat up the ground slightly
and tear your internal organs to shreads.
That's not proof, and I personally believe in my existance and likely harm
such thing result based on my belief. It is faithful believe and cannot
absolutely proven but does not prevent me from believing it as reality.
Post by none
If you believe you don't exist, this experiment won't affect you at all.
You have just written an incredibly complex sentence that cannot be parsed
to mean anything.
Yes, it is too complex for you :)
Gringo
2003-10-05 22:11:11 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 21:27:51 GMT, "onegod" <***@msn.com> wrote:

~
~"Mark K. Bilbo" <iskanipa-***@hoo.com> wrote in message
~news:***@eac.org...
~> On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 03:05:45 +0000, onegod wrote:
~>
~> > Point is though... If we are just a form of matter without will or
souls
~,
~> > then it dont really matter it is held together and seemingly act in
~orderly
~> > matter. :) Or go back in to form dust...
~>
~> Nonsense.
~>
~> Just because the evidence is that "meaning" isn't handed to us by
~> something outside, that does *not make it evaporate. Finding out that
~> "meaning" isn't something independent from humans doesn't cause life
to
~> be "meaningless." It means, rather, that we're the ones who were
creating
~> "meaning" all along.
~>
~> And why stop now?
~
~Well, i am NOT suggesting that. I am only suggesting the
MEANINGLESSNESS
~of believing in pure random existance. In other word, if you sneeze
and
~few thousand cells in your body die... it does not matter. However,
~without some sort of SPECIAL VALUE assigned to person (such as will,
soul)
~then person is just form of matter and rearranging (death and going
back to
~dust etc.) dont matter.
~
~So, my claim is that some SPECIAL VALUE for human life must be
considered in order for it worth anything.
~

Any philosophical conclusions or hypothesis worthy of additional
consideration yet?


Un hombre sabio utilizará su cerebro.
Un tonto utiliza el cerebro de otro.
Mark K. Bilbo
2003-10-05 23:04:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by onegod
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
Point is though... If we are just a form of matter without will or souls
,
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
then it dont really matter it is held together and seemingly act in
orderly
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
matter. :) Or go back in to form dust...
Nonsense.
Just because the evidence is that "meaning" isn't handed to us by
something outside, that does *not make it evaporate. Finding out that
"meaning" isn't something independent from humans doesn't cause life to
be "meaningless." It means, rather, that we're the ones who were creating
"meaning" all along.
And why stop now?
Well, i am NOT suggesting that. I am only suggesting the MEANINGLESSNESS
of believing in pure random existance. In other word, if you sneeze and
few thousand cells in your body die... it does not matter. However,
without some sort of SPECIAL VALUE assigned to person (such as will, soul)
then person is just form of matter and rearranging (death and going back to
dust etc.) dont matter.
So, my claim is that some SPECIAL VALUE for human life must be considered in
order for it worth anything.
And I think that's a silly claim.
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
Fistful of Nothing
2003-10-06 06:07:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
Point is though... If we are just a form of matter without will or souls
,
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
then it dont really matter it is held together and seemingly act in
orderly
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
matter. :) Or go back in to form dust...
Nonsense.
Just because the evidence is that "meaning" isn't handed to us by
something outside, that does *not make it evaporate. Finding out that
"meaning" isn't something independent from humans doesn't cause life to
be "meaningless." It means, rather, that we're the ones who were creating
"meaning" all along.
And why stop now?
Well, i am NOT suggesting that. I am only suggesting the
MEANINGLESSNESS
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
of believing in pure random existance. In other word, if you sneeze and
few thousand cells in your body die... it does not matter. However,
without some sort of SPECIAL VALUE assigned to person (such as will, soul)
then person is just form of matter and rearranging (death and going back to
dust etc.) dont matter.
So, my claim is that some SPECIAL VALUE for human life must be considered in
order for it worth anything.
And I think that's a silly claim.
Ok. You are correct.
Everyone and everything you've ever loved will fade into oblivion.
Your life has meaning to you but is based on no real truth, so
when you die, so will your meaning. Assuming this, my meaning is no more
important than
your is, so if I feel like I want to kill you and it has some meaning (of
course, I don't want to kill you)
then, if I win, my meaning wins and mine is more meaningful at least to me,
which
doesn't matter either. Even the person whom you love the
most doesn't ultimately matter at all. Just skin and bone doomed to death
and nothing more, save the temporary illusion of happiness and meaning.
When you look into the eyes of your loved one, know that whatever you feel
is an illusion and has no real basis in fact or reality. Love is nothing
more than
a biological function created by nature in order to nurture an instinct to
make
certain that DNA continues onward in a evolutionary spiral toward a
meaningless
goal. The only reason we can even have this conversation is a side effect
of evolution based on meat eating and hunting and nothing more.
Have a nice day!
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
none
2003-10-06 02:01:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by onegod
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
Point is though... If we are just a form of matter without will or souls
,
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
then it dont really matter it is held together and seemingly act in
orderly
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
matter. :) Or go back in to form dust...
Nonsense.
Just because the evidence is that "meaning" isn't handed to us by
something outside, that does *not make it evaporate. Finding out that
"meaning" isn't something independent from humans doesn't cause life to
be "meaningless." It means, rather, that we're the ones who were creating
"meaning" all along.
And why stop now?
Well, i am NOT suggesting that. I am only suggesting the MEANINGLESSNESS
of believing in pure random existance.
It isn't meaningless. It just doesn't require magic.
Post by onegod
In other word, if you sneeze and
few thousand cells in your body die... it does not matter. However,
without some sort of SPECIAL VALUE assigned to person (such as will, soul)
then person is just form of matter and rearranging (death and going back to
dust etc.) dont matter.
You can't get anyone to define that "special value" with sufficient
accuracy to measure it.

Thus, it is nothing more than a requirement for supernatural support.
Post by onegod
So, my claim is that some SPECIAL VALUE for human life must be considered in
order for it worth anything.
Again, you cannot define "special value" in a way that even religious
people will accept it.

Geo
Atheist #15
Fistful of Nothing
2003-10-06 06:09:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by none
Post by onegod
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
Point is though... If we are just a form of matter without will or souls
,
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
then it dont really matter it is held together and seemingly act in
orderly
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
matter. :) Or go back in to form dust...
Nonsense.
Just because the evidence is that "meaning" isn't handed to us by
something outside, that does *not make it evaporate. Finding out that
"meaning" isn't something independent from humans doesn't cause life to
be "meaningless." It means, rather, that we're the ones who were creating
"meaning" all along.
And why stop now?
Well, i am NOT suggesting that. I am only suggesting the
MEANINGLESSNESS
Post by none
Post by onegod
of believing in pure random existance.
It isn't meaningless. It just doesn't require magic.
Magic?
What?
Fuck magic.
If God exists, he is part of the nature of the world.
One needs no magic to believe in God.
Post by none
Post by onegod
In other word, if you sneeze and
few thousand cells in your body die... it does not matter. However,
without some sort of SPECIAL VALUE assigned to person (such as will, soul)
then person is just form of matter and rearranging (death and going back to
dust etc.) dont matter.
You can't get anyone to define that "special value" with sufficient
accuracy to measure it.
There is no real value in that statement at this time, in this discussion.
Define love.
Post by none
Thus, it is nothing more than a requirement for supernatural support.
Post by onegod
So, my claim is that some SPECIAL VALUE for human life must be considered in
order for it worth anything.
Again, you cannot define "special value" in a way that even religious
people will accept it.
Geo
Atheist #15
none
2003-10-06 06:10:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by none
Post by onegod
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Just because the evidence is that "meaning" isn't handed to us by
something outside, that does *not make it evaporate. Finding out that
"meaning" isn't something independent from humans doesn't cause life to
be "meaningless." It means, rather, that we're the ones who were
creating
Post by none
Post by onegod
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
"meaning" all along.
And why stop now?
Well, i am NOT suggesting that. I am only suggesting the
MEANINGLESSNESS
Post by none
Post by onegod
of believing in pure random existance.
It isn't meaningless. It just doesn't require magic.
Magic?
What?
Fuck magic.
I agree. Which side do you want?
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
If God exists, he is part of the nature of the world.
Wrong.

God, by definition, is omnipotent, omniscient, and can change natural law
at will.

Perhaps you haven't studied religious texts enough to get that clue.
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
One needs no magic to believe in God.
One needs to suspend all belief in natural law to believe in God.

If one accepts that there is an all-powerful being capable of creating a
universe, whatever the physical makeup, then that being is also capable of
altering or destroying the physical laws that control that universe.

Otherwise, your God is not a God at all.

Acceptance of the belief in God is equivalent to the belief in magic.
Magic is rooted in the belief that it is possible through incantation to
change natural law to favor the believer. That is true of religion as well.
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by none
Post by onegod
In other word, if you sneeze and
few thousand cells in your body die... it does not matter. However,
without some sort of SPECIAL VALUE assigned to person (such as will,
soul)
Post by none
Post by onegod
then person is just form of matter and rearranging (death and going back
to
Post by none
Post by onegod
dust etc.) dont matter.
You can't get anyone to define that "special value" with sufficient
accuracy to measure it.
There is no real value in that statement at this time, in this
discussion.
Then you haven't a clue as to what you are talking about.

You offer up "some sort of SPECIAL VALUE" as though just saying the words
makes it true.

Define "special value".
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Define love.
An emotion created in the act of bonding between two mammals of the
species homo sapiens.

That emotion is not "special" at all. It is quite common, in fact. So common that
songs, poems and volumes of literature have been dedicated to its
expression.

That "special value" you are pushing like some crutch is still undefined.

Geo
Atheist #15
Fistful of Nothing
2003-10-06 06:43:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by none
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by none
Post by onegod
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Just because the evidence is that "meaning" isn't handed to us by
something outside, that does *not make it evaporate. Finding out that
"meaning" isn't something independent from humans doesn't cause life to
be "meaningless." It means, rather, that we're the ones who were
creating
Post by none
Post by onegod
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
"meaning" all along.
And why stop now?
Well, i am NOT suggesting that. I am only suggesting the
MEANINGLESSNESS
Post by none
Post by onegod
of believing in pure random existance.
It isn't meaningless. It just doesn't require magic.
Magic?
What?
Fuck magic.
I agree. Which side do you want?
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
If God exists, he is part of the nature of the world.
Wrong.
God, by definition, is omnipotent, omniscient, and can change natural law
at will.
Well, that depends on what god we are talking about.
Post by none
Perhaps you haven't studied religious texts enough to get that clue.
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
One needs no magic to believe in God.
One needs to suspend all belief in natural law to believe in God.
Natural law?
Show me a complete natural law that can predict anything in the universe,
then, we'll talk.
Post by none
If one accepts that there is an all-powerful being capable of creating a
universe, whatever the physical makeup, then that being is also capable of
altering or destroying the physical laws that control that universe.
Otherwise, your God is not a God at all.
That's utter buulshite.
Thor isn't omnipotent.
Post by none
Acceptance of the belief in God is equivalent to the belief in magic.
Magic is rooted in the belief that it is possible through incantation to
change natural law to favor the believer. That is true of religion as well.
Other than some brilliant examples of repeatable experiementation
which have resulted in some satisfactory theories, science is a religion.
I'm a fan of science, but, at least some religions have some completeness.
Post by none
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by none
Post by onegod
In other word, if you sneeze and
few thousand cells in your body die... it does not matter. However,
without some sort of SPECIAL VALUE assigned to person (such as will,
soul)
Post by none
Post by onegod
then person is just form of matter and rearranging (death and going back
to
Post by none
Post by onegod
dust etc.) dont matter.
You can't get anyone to define that "special value" with sufficient
accuracy to measure it.
There is no real value in that statement at this time, in this discussion.
Then you haven't a clue as to what you are talking about.
What a convienient statement.
Post by none
You offer up "some sort of SPECIAL VALUE" as though just saying the words
makes it true.
Define "special value".
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Define love.
An emotion created in the act of bonding between two mammals of the
species homo sapiens.
That's sad.
Post by none
That emotion is not "special" at all. It is quite common, in fact. So common that
songs, poems and volumes of literature have been dedicated to its
expression.
That "special value" you are pushing like some crutch is still undefined.
Geo
Atheist #15
onegod
2003-10-06 08:51:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by none
Post by onegod
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
Point is though... If we are just a form of matter without will or souls
,
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
then it dont really matter it is held together and seemingly act in
orderly
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
matter. :) Or go back in to form dust...
Nonsense.
Just because the evidence is that "meaning" isn't handed to us by
something outside, that does *not make it evaporate. Finding out that
"meaning" isn't something independent from humans doesn't cause life to
be "meaningless." It means, rather, that we're the ones who were creating
"meaning" all along.
And why stop now?
Well, i am NOT suggesting that. I am only suggesting the
MEANINGLESSNESS
Post by none
Post by onegod
of believing in pure random existance.
It isn't meaningless. It just doesn't require magic.
Well, lets say do to alien or natural disaster, all life on earth
disappears. Does it have meaning or implied harm if it was just random
existance?
Post by none
You can't get anyone to define that "special value" with sufficient
accuracy to measure it.
Sure I can. value can be assigned arbituary. For example, most of world
dont value some of other people's live much. For example, tabacco exec
might value $1m of personal gain more than 1million lives.
Post by none
Thus, it is nothing more than a requirement for supernatural support.
Your consious is supernatural unless you some how believe that there's your
ability in term of mind is based on purely matter YET some how has the
ability to hav choice rather than do things arrangement of matter do.
Post by none
Post by onegod
So, my claim is that some SPECIAL VALUE for human life must be considered in
order for it worth anything.
Again, you cannot define "special value" in a way that even religious
people will accept it.
I can define :P Humans have right to live and there for values it is ok
to digest food and kill lower form of life to various degree. ie for
example your body's ability to kill most of germ/virus on its own etc.
Sverker Johansson
2003-10-06 12:15:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by onegod
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
Point is though... If we are just a form of matter without will or souls
,
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
then it dont really matter it is held together and seemingly act in
orderly
Post by Mark K. Bilbo
Post by onegod
matter. :) Or go back in to form dust...
Nonsense.
Just because the evidence is that "meaning" isn't handed to us by
something outside, that does *not make it evaporate. Finding out that
"meaning" isn't something independent from humans doesn't cause life to
be "meaningless." It means, rather, that we're the ones who were creating
"meaning" all along.
And why stop now?
Well, i am NOT suggesting that. I am only suggesting the MEANINGLESSNESS
of believing in pure random existance. In other word, if you sneeze and
few thousand cells in your body die... it does not matter. However,
without some sort of SPECIAL VALUE assigned to person (such as will, soul)
then person is just form of matter and rearranging (death and going back to
dust etc.) dont matter.
So, my claim is that some SPECIAL VALUE for human life must be considered in
order for it worth anything.
Agreed. My life has special value. I am not the chattel of
some magical sky-being, to be disposed of at its whim.
My life is meaningful in itself.

I have never understood why theists think life as chattel is
more meaningful than an independent existence.

Best regards,
Sverker Johansson
-----------------------------
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy,
education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would
indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of
punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert Einstein
------------------------------
stone
2003-10-05 05:08:55 UTC
Permalink
"Bill" <***@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<_cFfb.164035$***@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

The Lord Jesus Christ appeared to me and paraphrased something from
the New Testament to me. I have seen Him and know for a fact that
Christianity is the only true religion on Earth. [However, there are
false churches that are claiming to be Christian when they are not
really Christian.]

I know that you are incorrect.

Hell is a very awful place; please reconsider your position on this
subject.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he
that believeth not shall be damned.
bob young
2003-10-05 09:19:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by stone
The Lord Jesus Christ appeared to me and paraphrased something from
the New Testament to me. I have seen Him and know for a fact that
Christianity is the only true religion on Earth. [However, there are
false churches that are claiming to be Christian when they are not
really Christian.]
I know that you are incorrect.
Hell is a very awful place; please reconsider your position on this
subject.
alright then, answer this question:

I'm always puzzled by this 'hell' and 'paradise' thing.

Mankind is not polarised into 'very good' and 'very bad'. The middle of the road
people, the majority of us humans, meet somewhere in the middle with the state of
goodness and badness going right across the spectrum - so the idea of going to
hell or paradise is really nonsense, as it means that whoever is on the wrong side
of the line that is drawn between the good and the bad - one fella or lady goes to
hell and the lucky chap just on the other side of the line goes to paradise - does
it not all become very very silly?

I hope you will not counter this with a quote from a religious book - the facts
can not be altered - a line has to be drawn where the good and bad divide, even a
god has to draw one.

Unless of course there is a big hole in the middle for the 'non hell' and 'non
paradise' folks to fall into !!!!!!!

bob
hongkong

A theologian is like a blind man in a dark room searching for a black cat which isn't there - and finding it!
[Anonymous
Liz
2003-10-05 13:31:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by bob young
Post by stone
The Lord Jesus Christ appeared to me and paraphrased something from
the New Testament to me. I have seen Him and know for a fact that
Christianity is the only true religion on Earth. [However, there are
false churches that are claiming to be Christian when they are not
really Christian.]
I know that you are incorrect.
Hell is a very awful place; please reconsider your position on this
subject.
I'm always puzzled by this 'hell' and 'paradise' thing.
Mankind is not polarised into 'very good' and 'very bad'. The middle of the road
people, the majority of us humans, meet somewhere in the middle with the state of
goodness and badness going right across the spectrum - so the idea of going to
hell or paradise is really nonsense, as it means that whoever is on the wrong side
of the line that is drawn between the good and the bad - one fella or lady goes to
hell and the lucky chap just on the other side of the line goes to paradise - does
it not all become very very silly?
I hope you will not counter this with a quote from a religious book - the facts
can not be altered - a line has to be drawn where the good and bad divide, even a
god has to draw one.
Unless of course there is a big hole in the middle for the 'non hell' and 'non
paradise' folks to fall into !!!!!!!
Actually, it is even worse than you surmise. Good or bad doesn't
enter into the question of where one will spend his/her eternal
afterlife according to the Christian religion. The destination has
already been determined by the arbitrary decision that those who
believe will reach paradise and those who do not will be consigned to
eternal torment. Those who believe no matter how bad will go to the
Christian heaven. Those who do not believe no matter how good will go
to the Christian hell. Justice based on one's actions doesn't enter
into the Judgement® because those who believe have already been
forgiven of any misdeed that they did or will commit by a blood
sacrifice to God®.

Christians are those that approve of this proposed system of
injustice.



Liz #658 BAAWA

4th Law: Most people cannot imagine a god morally superior
to themselves; if you want to know what such a person would
do if they had ultimate power, ask them about their deity.
-- Abner Mintz
Mark K. Bilbo
2003-10-05 14:13:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liz
Post by bob young
Post by stone
The Lord Jesus Christ appeared to me and paraphrased something from
the New Testament to me. I have seen Him and know for a fact that
Christianity is the only true religion on Earth. [However, there are
false churches that are claiming to be Christian when they are not
really Christian.]
I know that you are incorrect.
Hell is a very awful place; please reconsider your position on this
subject.
I'm always puzzled by this 'hell' and 'paradise' thing.
Mankind is not polarised into 'very good' and 'very bad'. The middle of the road
people, the majority of us humans, meet somewhere in the middle with the state of
goodness and badness going right across the spectrum - so the idea of going to
hell or paradise is really nonsense, as it means that whoever is on the wrong side
of the line that is drawn between the good and the bad - one fella or lady goes to
hell and the lucky chap just on the other side of the line goes to paradise - does
it not all become very very silly?
I hope you will not counter this with a quote from a religious book - the facts
can not be altered - a line has to be drawn where the good and bad divide, even a
god has to draw one.
Unless of course there is a big hole in the middle for the 'non hell' and 'non
paradise' folks to fall into !!!!!!!
Actually, it is even worse than you surmise. Good or bad doesn't
enter into the question of where one will spend his/her eternal
afterlife according to the Christian religion. The destination has
already been determined by the arbitrary decision that those who
believe will reach paradise and those who do not will be consigned to
eternal torment. Those who believe no matter how bad will go to the
Christian heaven. Those who do not believe no matter how good will go
to the Christian hell. Justice based on one's actions doesn't enter
into the Judgement® because those who believe have already been
forgiven of any misdeed that they did or will commit by a blood
sacrifice to God®.
Christians are those that approve of this proposed system of
injustice.
Which is a major component of the christian moral system being so
horrifically defective. There's no incentives, really, to alter behavior.

You're supposed to not do "bad things" as a christian but, ultimately, it
doesn't *matter if you do. You have a "get of jail free" card handy. So
many christians spend their lives *feeling bad about being bad but don't
have any real reason to *stop.

Yet they claim this moral code would make society better somehow...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
Fistful of Nothing
2003-10-05 18:21:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Liz
Post by bob young
Post by stone
The Lord Jesus Christ appeared to me and paraphrased something from
the New Testament to me. I have seen Him and know for a fact that
Christianity is the only true religion on Earth. [However, there are
false churches that are claiming to be Christian when they are not
really Christian.]
I know that you are incorrect.
Hell is a very awful place; please reconsider your position on this
subject.
I'm always puzzled by this 'hell' and 'paradise' thing.
Mankind is not polarised into 'very good' and 'very bad'. The middle of the road
people, the majority of us humans, meet somewhere in the middle with the state of
goodness and badness going right across the spectrum - so the idea of going to
hell or paradise is really nonsense, as it means that whoever is on the wrong side
of the line that is drawn between the good and the bad - one fella or lady goes to
hell and the lucky chap just on the other side of the line goes to paradise - does
it not all become very very silly?
I hope you will not counter this with a quote from a religious book - the facts
can not be altered - a line has to be drawn where the good and bad divide, even a
god has to draw one.
Unless of course there is a big hole in the middle for the 'non hell' and 'non
paradise' folks to fall into !!!!!!!
Actually, it is even worse than you surmise. Good or bad doesn't
enter into the question of where one will spend his/her eternal
afterlife according to the Christian religion. The destination has
already been determined by the arbitrary decision that those who
believe will reach paradise and those who do not will be consigned to
eternal torment. Those who believe no matter how bad will go to the
Christian heaven. Those who do not believe no matter how good will go
to the Christian hell. Justice based on one's actions doesn't enter
into the Judgement® because those who believe have already been
forgiven of any misdeed that they did or will commit by a blood
sacrifice to God®.
Well, I think the idea is that if you truly believe you won't commit
evil acts.
So, a man going around murdering people probably isn't
a true believer regardless of what he says or thinks to the contrary.
Post by Liz
Christians are those that approve of this proposed system of
injustice.
Liz #658 BAAWA
4th Law: Most people cannot imagine a god morally superior
to themselves; if you want to know what such a person would
do if they had ultimate power, ask them about their deity.
-- Abner Mintz
Woden
2003-10-05 13:11:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by stone
The Lord Jesus Christ appeared to me and paraphrased something from
the New Testament to me. I have seen Him and know for a fact that
Christianity is the only true religion on Earth. [However, there are
false churches that are claiming to be Christian when they are not
really Christian.]
Did you get photos or video of this visit? Did any reliable witnesses see
and hear him at the same time? If the answer is "no" then how am I
supposed to differenciate between this being real and this being the result
of your imagination?
Post by stone
I know that you are incorrect.
Based on what valid evidence?
Post by stone
Hell is a very awful place; please reconsider your position on this
subject.
Prove that hell is a real place and not imaginary.
Post by stone
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he
that believeth not shall be damned.
Oh dear me, that really makes me feel bad, I think I'll convert to xianity
right away! NOT
--
Woden

"religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
Mark K. Bilbo
2003-10-05 14:11:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by stone
The Lord Jesus Christ appeared to me and paraphrased something from
the New Testament to me.
You know they can treat that now days...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
Llanzlan Klazmon The 15th
2003-10-05 21:41:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by stone
The Lord Jesus Christ appeared to me and paraphrased something from
the New Testament to me. I have seen Him and know for a fact that
Christianity is the only true religion on Earth. [However, there are
false churches that are claiming to be Christian when they are not
really Christian.]
What is your verifiable evidence for this.
Post by stone
I know that you are incorrect.
No you don't.
Post by stone
Hell is a very awful place; please reconsider your position on this
subject.
Demonstrate its' existance.
Post by stone
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he
that believeth not shall be damned.
This verse is unjust from any point of view and therefore disproves
existance of the christian god straight out of your own book.

Llanzlan.
Melchizedek
2003-10-05 05:54:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
The Jesus myth is no more believable than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
Atheists do not believe Jesus existed, BUT they constantly talk about him. :-)
It's like constantly talking about a $4 dollar bill that does not exist. :-)
You have to be a real hypocrite to constanly talk about something you do not
believe exists. :-)
Kenneth Doyle
2003-10-05 06:27:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Melchizedek
Atheists do not believe Jesus existed, BUT they constantly
talk about him. :-) It's like constantly talking about a
$4 dollar bill that does not exist. :-) You have to be a
real hypocrite to constanly talk about something you do not
believe exists. :-)
Nice troll!
Mark K. Bilbo
2003-10-05 14:10:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kenneth Doyle
Post by Melchizedek
Atheists do not believe Jesus existed, BUT they constantly
talk about him. :-) It's like constantly talking about a
$4 dollar bill that does not exist. :-) You have to be a
real hypocrite to constanly talk about something you do not
believe exists. :-)
Nice troll!
Mel? Nah. Bad troll! is more like it...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
bob young
2003-10-05 09:28:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Melchizedek
Post by Bill
The Jesus myth is no more believable than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
Atheists do not believe Jesus existed, BUT they constantly talk about him. :-)
It's like constantly talking about a $4 dollar bill that does not exist. :-)
You have to be a real hypocrite to constanly talk about something you do not
believe exists. :-)
Atheists have a genuine desire to see humanity behaving in a sensible humanitarian
manner, treating all peoples and races as equals. They despise what a large
portion of humanity wastes on religious activities - it is like working for a boss
who never appears at the office.

Take one tiny example which still applies to Muslim and other religions today, but
Christianity has largely dropped it [proving that the substance of religion is
false anyway] and I refer to widowhood.

70 years ago in the west and today in the east, at least in some parts. a widow
will go into mourning, never re-marry and wait to join her long lost husband in
heavan. Some are widowed below age 40 and live the rest of their days in misery.
Now it is changing for the better - but this is the kind of thing that atheists
and humanitarians, for that is what we are, hate the most.

Religion is control of the flock for the sake of.....you finish it

Bob
Hong Kong

"Atheism is the world of reality, it is reason, it is freedom.
Atheism is human concern, and intellectual honesty to a degree that the religious
mind cannot begin to understand. And yet it is more than this. Atheism is not an
old religion, it is not a new and coming religion, in fact it is not, and never
has been, a religion at all. The definition of Atheism is magnificent in its
simplicity:

Atheism is merely the bed-rock of sanity in a world of madness."

[Atheism: An Affirmative View, by Emmett F. Fields]

If i may add to what Mr fields says, the 'madness' can be seen on the front page
of any newspaper today
Mark K. Bilbo
2003-10-05 14:10:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Melchizedek
Post by Bill
The Jesus myth is no more believable than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
Atheists do not believe Jesus existed, BUT they constantly talk about him. :-)
It's like constantly talking about a $4 dollar bill that does not exist. :-)
You have to be a real hypocrite to constanly talk about something you do not
believe exists. :-)
YAWN.

The religions that arose around the Jesus myth *do exist dumbass.
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
Robibnikoff
2003-10-05 17:18:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Melchizedek
Post by Bill
The Jesus myth is no more believable than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
Atheists do not believe Jesus existed, BUT they constantly talk about him. :-)
It's like constantly talking about a $4 dollar bill that does not exist. :-)
You have to be a real hypocrite to constanly talk about something you do not
believe exists. :-)
And you've NEVER mentioned Santa Claus, right?

Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster
#1557
Christopher A. Lee
2003-10-05 17:23:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Melchizedek
Post by Bill
The Jesus myth is no more believable than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
Atheists do not believe Jesus existed, BUT they constantly talk about him. :-)
It's like constantly talking about a $4 dollar bill that does not exist. :-)
You have to be a real hypocrite to constanly talk about something you do not
believe exists. :-)
And you've NEVER mentioned Santa Claus, right?
It's dick-cheese Mel, A.K.A. smeg-head. You'll never get any sense out
of him.
Mark K. Bilbo
2003-10-05 17:29:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Melchizedek
Post by Bill
The Jesus myth is no more believable than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
Atheists do not believe Jesus existed, BUT they constantly talk about him. :-)
It's like constantly talking about a $4 dollar bill that does not exist. :-)
You have to be a real hypocrite to constanly talk about something you do not
believe exists. :-)
And you've NEVER mentioned Santa Claus, right?
Never! Not once! Why, he would *never, *never, *never discuss imaginary
figures! I mean, if you so much as *mention one, it means you're a
hypocrite!

And we all know, Mel is surely no hypocrite...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
Harry Leopold
2003-10-05 20:27:15 UTC
Permalink
Newsgroups: alt.atheism, alt.religion, alt.religion.christian
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Melchizedek
Post by Bill
The Jesus myth is no more believable than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
Atheists do not believe Jesus existed, BUT they constantly talk about him. :-)
It's like constantly talking about a $4 dollar bill that does not exist.
:-)
You have to be a real hypocrite to constanly talk about something you do not
believe exists. :-)
And you've NEVER mentioned Santa Claus, right?
Never! Not once! Why, he would *never, *never, *never discuss imaginary
figures! I mean, if you so much as *mention one, it means you're a hypocrite!
And we all know, Mel is surely no hypocrite...
Ok, Mark, you now owe me a new Myth 6 (model 66) Irony-O-Meter. It was not
even a week old and it blew up like Krakatoa. Now I know why those things
never come with a warranty.
--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness

"And Thor is one that you should definitely never argue with when it is
raining and you are wearing copper underwear." - walksalone
Mark K. Bilbo
2003-10-05 23:04:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry Leopold
Newsgroups: alt.atheism, alt.religion, alt.religion.christian
Post by Robibnikoff
Post by Melchizedek
Post by Bill
The Jesus myth is no more believable than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
Atheists do not believe Jesus existed, BUT they constantly talk about him. :-)
It's like constantly talking about a $4 dollar bill that does not exist.
:-)
You have to be a real hypocrite to constanly talk about something you do not
believe exists. :-)
And you've NEVER mentioned Santa Claus, right?
Never! Not once! Why, he would *never, *never, *never discuss imaginary
figures! I mean, if you so much as *mention one, it means you're a hypocrite!
And we all know, Mel is surely no hypocrite...
Ok, Mark, you now owe me a new Myth 6 (model 66) Irony-O-Meter. It was not
even a week old and it blew up like Krakatoa. Now I know why those things
never come with a warranty.
You're still using an irony meter?

I thought they were banned after the great Randy Story disaster...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
From alt.atheism only
Ian
2003-10-05 21:23:31 UTC
Permalink
In article <amOfb.118$***@news.randori.com>, ***@as-if.com
says...
Post by Melchizedek
Post by Bill
The Jesus myth is no more believable than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
Atheists do not believe Jesus existed, BUT they constantly talk about him. :-)
It's like constantly talking about a $4 dollar bill that does not exist. :-)
You have to be a real hypocrite to constanly talk about something you do not
believe exists. :-)
Gee, I guess that makes all the fiction writers and fans in the world
hypocrites then eh? Oh, and talking constantly about characters in TV
shows and movies is right out too. Just to be safe, better rub out that
pesky imagination thing before you turn hypocrite too!
--
To reply to me via email, drop the dash in the address.
bob young
2003-10-05 09:04:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
The Jesus myth is no more believable than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
The only reason adults cling to this myth is the inherent fear of death and
the potential life after death. Who wants to burn eternally in hell. Who
does not hope to live a wonderful eternal life in heaven? This is the opiate
that bolsters the illogical religious beliefs.
Just consider how ridiculous and totally illogical the foundation of the
Christian belief
system is.
Keep in mind that God is supposedly all powerful and creator of the heavens,
the earth and all the creatures in the Universe.
This all powerful God, who created the human race with it's multitude of
imperfections and ignorance, then sent God the son to earth having him born
of the virgin Mary. He then had him grow up normally from child hood to
adulthood with the profession of an illiterate carpenter as an adult.
He then preached a variant of Judaism in a small area of the middle East.
His preaching reached only a miniscule portion of the worlds population at
that time. The millions that were born and died prior to his coming received
non of his religious instruction and lived and died without its benefits.
The other millions that he did not reach with his preachings like wise lived
and died without the benefit of his teachings and pronouncements.
Jesus then let the Romans arrest him and painfully and cruelly kill him by
nailing him to a cross with two common criminals. What could be the purpose
of this for an omnipotent God?
After all his grossly inefficient and ineffective teaching and crusifiction
he rose from his crypt and went back to heaven from whence he came.
He left behind no documents or writings of his own, as evidence of his
instructions to the human race. Instead he left it to fallible humans to
document his instructions in frequently varied and contradictory documents
now called the Bible. Despite the passage of 2,000 years he has still left
millions without the knowledge or benefit of his teachings.
Man has been able to create world wide communications systems such as
radio,TV and cell phones. Why didn't God use his awesome powers to reach
all of his subjects directly via some efficient similer communications
system. Why doesn't he now?
The answer is simple. This whole Christian/Jesus belief system is pure myth.
A 'work of art' Bill. I'm copying it for future use.

I hope *Some* of it sinks in, but I expect to read the usual rubbish from the
fudies very soon.

Keep up the good work

Bob
Hong Kong

"Religion is a socio-political institution for the control of
people's thoughts, lives, and actions; based on
ancient myths and superstitions perpetrated through
generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
[Woden]
Post by Bill
--
Bill Mech
Paul Hume
2003-10-06 13:53:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill
The answer is simple. This whole Christian/Jesus belief system is pure myth.
You say that like its a bad thing.

Myths provide frameworks for ideals, models of honor, right action,
and, if you will, thought-experiment that can be found in no other
area of human expression. We might also consider the profound insight
into any given culture and the psychology of culture that can be
derived from its myths.

It is immaterial that Christianity (or Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, etc)
are mythological. Their value is interior, for those who draw insight,
comfort, or inspiration from them. Just as the myth of the idealistic
Founders of the US and Framers of the Constitution gives us the
strength to keep fighting to preserve the values we think inspired
them. (As with Rome, myth and legend can tend to fuse in some subsets
of the cultural mythos).

If a child absorbs the ideals of chivalry from the Arthurian mythos,
and retains that concept of honor as he or she grows to adulthood:
that nobility is based on right action, that the purpose of strength
is the defense of others, that one keeps one's pledged word, etc. why
is this so terrible?

The issues folks have with church communities seem, sometimes, to
spill over into a hyper-materialistic reaction against myth, and the
rich bounty that grows from the soil of myth. No Christian myth, no
body of religious music from Josquin, Mozart, Bach, Verdi, among many
many others. No Sistine ceiling or Pieta. No Last Supper by either da
Vinci or Dali. No body of myth in other cultures, no Pyramids, Per m
Hru, Stonehenge or other stone circles, no classical statuary from
Greece or Rome, no Lord of the Rings.

If you honest to Gods eschew all the artistic and cultural benefits of
myth, then OK, have at it, you can with complete honest lambast the
function of myth on the human psyche and in human cultures, and have
nothing to do with myth in any positive manifestation. Just as you can
refuse to have anything to do with bullshit if you are willing to do
without roses.

Otherwise, I think you are firing somewhat wide, and the real question
of what pisses you off (or who you are trying to impress) remains
obscure.

Paul
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